Is there any way to cancel the effect of these specials after they've been successful?
How playable are they? Good, bad, so so? How can protect Cyclops or Thor after they've used these specials?
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 08, 2012, 01:52:42 AM
Is there any way to cancel the effect of these specials after they've been successful?
How playable are they? Good, bad, so so? How can protect Cyclops or Thor after they've used these specials?
good(a 9 that isnt one per deck)
you can still negate as your offensive action
what do yo do with the card after the opponent's character is koed?
Ah... I suppose you can remove hits as well...?
this card is about risk versus reward.
pro- damage
con - effect
might wanna negate this special after the attack is successful and the attacked is defeated.
Quote from: BasiliskFang on December 08, 2012, 08:10:42 AM
this card is about risk versus reward.
pro- damage
con - effect
might wanna negate this special after the attack is successful and the attacked is defeated.
why play it if your gonna just negate you played already
unless u meant attacker is defeated
which isnt a bad idea
hopefully have 11 damage on target already
and before your character is ko'd
this is true
first time is seen FROG used in that way
editing ;D
i like how you showed your point
well, i mean, if cyclops hits batman with it, and the FT is successful and causes a KO, what happens to the FT card?
Does it stay under Cyclops because the effect is FROG?
You can't negate it because AO and FO cards say "played by opponent". This card is played by you.
I don't think there is anything you can do about it.
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/765.png)(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/850.png)
What about specials that remove cards from play that affect the remainder of battle or remainder of game? Would that cancel the effect?
It seems that this particular consequence isn't generated by the card itself being in play. It's more like an emblem for Cyclops or Thor that prevents them from being defended by specials. I wouldn't say (but I'm guessing) that anything would remove that because it isn't an effect that's on the board. It just simply "is" after you play those specials.
Where is everybody?
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/366.png)
they only affect your opponent's. so no unless they use it on you.
Sigh... there's nothing that can be done. Play it when you don't care to lose Cyke or Thor.
check events.
Resurrect a teammate?
that might be one way...
There are still a number of cards that are useful for preserving Cyke and Thor after the FT effect is in play. I have a deck that features both Cyclops AND Thor, and I use Crystal on the Front Line. She has the EE from The Marvels that heals/blocks Special cards (as opposed to the Power card versions previously released). So, she can preserve life for them by healing Special cards that land. In addition to that, the deck uses Danger Room, which has an AO (to negate a landed Special, if needed), and the CD from Beast, which can be played offensively for Cyke and Thor, still. The deck fares pretty well for what it does, but I do expect (and even plan) for Cyke and Thor to die relatively early (at least one of them).
The best thing to do is use cards that would normally be defensive, and use them offensively - where possible.
AH, AM, BJ, CD, CN, DZ*, EQ, FA*, FF (maybe others I missed) (*must be played offensively anyway)
or use a few healing Specials, especially the ones that can remove Hits To Current Battle.
AL (esp. Morlocks), EA, EE, ET, FH, JB, KL, KR, MV, NA, NZ, OR (maybe others I missed)
Does KL ever remove hits from permanent record or hits to current battle???!!!!
What about EB specials? Can I move attacks made on Cyclops to an EB special after an FT?
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 10, 2012, 12:03:07 AM
Does KL ever remove hits from permanent record or hits to current battle???!!!!
What about EB specials? Can I move attacks made on Cyclops to an EB special after an FT?
yes, a KL removes all of them, regardless of where try are played, as long as they have the words indicated. Permanent Record, Hits To Current Battle, or in play on, in front, or next to a character or Location.
no on the EB. for an attack to go there, it's being "Shifted" which is considered defending the original target.
So KL just got better. So if I land a successful attack and it generates an effect that lasts for remainder of battle, then two turns later I play KL, it removes that hit simply because it has the words "remainder of battle" on it?
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 11, 2012, 12:07:17 AM
So KL just got better. So if I land a successful attack and it generates an effect that lasts for remainder of battle, then two turns later I play KL, it removes that hit simply because it has the words "remainder of battle" on it?
it DOES remove the hit, but it does NOT always remove the effect.
e.g., it will remove the effect of a BJ, so Gambit could then be attacked.
it will NOT remove the effect of an AS, so Banshee would still be unable to attack after playing Super Scream.
How come? Why does it not work in both cases? Don't get me wrong. I dont' really want Banshee attacking me after I remove his hit in my permanent record so I'll take it.:)
So if my opponent plays a KL to remove the Cyclops FT hit in his character's permanent record, Cyclops still can't be defended for remainder of game?
This is the stuff that gets me confused when playing OP. Trying to figure all this technical stuff out. Intuitively, I wouldn't think KL would remove hits in the permanent record at all. It seems to want to remove cards that generate an effect for remainder of battle or remainder of game, as played for that reason. Numerical attacks in the permanent record don't seem to be "in play" as something like "Slugfest" or "Charm" and effects generated would seem to last their duration as a consequence (Banshee's 11E or Cyclops FT) or reward (Black Widow's 7F OPD)... just from an intuitive standpoint.
Intuition is something lost even in the world. People will twist anything to their favor. You guys wouldn't believe what I heard on the radio the other day.
it IS confusing. it's the secondary effects that take place as the card is played - those are the effects that seem to remain. so, the "may not attack for remainder of Battle" takes effect as soon as the Special is played, regardless of the success of the attack.
this is what I learned about when to negate. I guess if you negate that Super Scream defensively, it negates the whole thing, including the secondary effect. but, if you let the hit land, and then on your turn, negate the card offensively, it will remove the hit but Banshee will still be restricted.
I guess :-\
So in conclusion, KL can remove hits in current battle, and permanent record as long the words "for remainder of battle/game" are printed on the card, but if a secondary effect was generated by the numerical attack, the effect still remains.
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 12, 2012, 06:52:31 AM
So in conclusion, KL can remove hits in current battle, and permanent record as long the words "for remainder of battle/game" are printed on the card, but if a secondary effect was generated by the numerical attack, the effect still remains.
correct.
I think I just got my OverPower Elementary School diploma.
Quote from: ncannelora on December 09, 2012, 09:52:10 PM... and the CD from Beast, which can be played offensively for Cyke and Thor...
Are you sure about that? This doesn't seem right to me. Even though you play it on your turn the special is still serving a defensive purpose. I'd agree that they'd still be in effect if played before those specials, but not after.
I don't think the CD is defending so much as it's preventing attacks being made to Cyke or Thor. A defense is an immediate response to an attack, where the CD kind of sets up a wall, so to speak, that the opponent would have to get around to make an offensive action that couldn't be prevented because of the previously played FT. That's my take... I'm not sure how it would officially break down, but someone will fill us in on the technicalities.
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 14, 2012, 12:48:32 AM
I don't think the CD is defending so much as it's preventing attacks being made to Cyke or Thor. A defense is an immediate response to an attack, where the CD kind of sets up a wall, so to speak, that the opponent would have to get around to make an offensive action that couldn't be prevented because of the previously played FT. That's my take... I'm not sure how it would officially break down, but someone will fill us in on the technicalities.
You pretty much nailed that one on the head. The DZ Specials, and how they are played, gives all the definition you need on this one. The errata that eliminated their defensive use, clearly separates the ideas of "defending" and "protecting" on this. Offensively played, a BJ, or AH, or CD "protects" while defensively it would "defend" the character.
Quote from: ncannelora on December 12, 2012, 01:02:15 AM
it IS confusing. it's the secondary effects that take place as the card is played - those are the effects that seem to remain. so, the "may not attack for remainder of Battle" takes effect as soon as the Special is played, regardless of the success of the attack.
this is what I learned about when to negate. I guess if you negate that Super Scream defensively, it negates the whole thing, including the secondary effect. but, if you let the hit land, and then on your turn, negate the card offensively, it will remove the hit but Banshee will still be restricted.
I guess :-\
I always assumed that if you negated a special, it negates the entire special, where as, if you let the Super Scream hit, then on your next offensive action you played the EE that removes special card hits, the hit would leave, but the negative effect on Banshee would stay. Negating offensively after the fact SHOULD still removed the second effect that the card created, as a negate essentially makes it as if the card in question was never played.
That's OverPower for ya. :o I stay lost like I was in a plane crash and woke up on an island next to a guy named Hurley.
Quote from: Demacus on March 03, 2013, 03:55:05 PM
I always assumed that if you negated a special, it negates the entire special, where as, if you let the Super Scream hit, then on your next offensive action you played the EE that removes special card hits, the hit would leave, but the negative effect on Banshee would stay. Negating offensively after the fact SHOULD still removed the second effect that the card created, as a negate essentially makes it as if the card in question was never played.
I am not opposed to this, and it makes more sense to me, but it's not how I was told it works. I'm more in favor of the Negate being a ret-con. i.e. Banshee never Super-Screamed.
If anyone else wants to weigh in to support that, I'll get behind it. It's just not what I was told (don't remember by whom).
Quote from: ncannelora on March 12, 2013, 12:13:04 PM
Quote from: Demacus on March 03, 2013, 03:55:05 PM
I always assumed that if you negated a special, it negates the entire special, where as, if you let the Super Scream hit, then on your next offensive action you played the EE that removes special card hits, the hit would leave, but the negative effect on Banshee would stay. Negating offensively after the fact SHOULD still removed the second effect that the card created, as a negate essentially makes it as if the card in question was never played.
I am not opposed to this, and it makes more sense to me, but it's not how I was told it works. I'm more in favor of the Negate being a ret-con. i.e. Banshee never Super-Screamed.
If anyone else wants to weigh in to support that, I'll get behind it. It's just not what I was told (don't remember by whom).
That is the way it's played. If you let Super Scream hit, and then negate it, the limitation on Banshee is still removed. If you remove Super Scream with a non-negate (IE Run from Slaughter) then the limitation remains.
You cannot, however, undo an instant effect such as a discard or draw. If I'm hit with an HY, and pitch two cards negating after the fact doesn't restore my cards. But lasting effects are removed even if you negate after the fact.
Bear in mind, also, that in the case of something like X-man's Ultimate potential where the opponent may not attack for remainder of battle - If the opponent has already passed his turn, and you negate the special, it does NOT undo the pass.
Thanks BBH.
It had been awhile since I wrote this reply, and certainly further back since the issue happened to me. When I was re-reading this today, it didn't seem right :-\ So, clearly, I got my wires crossed in there somewhere. When you mentioned the Run From Slaughter, it stood out, and I think that must be what I was remembering.
Good to note on the Pass being irrevocable.
i'm a fan of 'where the card is, the effect is'
what about KLs and dow? Opponent must immediately discard all Special cards in play that affect the "remainder of the battle" or the "remainder of the game."
Quote from: breadmaster on March 12, 2013, 05:13:44 PM
i'm a fan of 'where the card is, the effect is'
what about KLs and dow? Opponent must immediately discard all Special cards in play that affect the "remainder of the battle" or the "remainder of the game."
since they aren't actually negating the hit (in the literal sense of the verb), but instead only removing the hit (like an AL), I'd say that any secondary effects remain.
that's exactly my thought
if the effect doesn't go when the card goes, then KL is actually a BAD card to use against dow.
'Play during battle. Opponent cannot use Activator cards for remainder of game or until this Special has been attacked with 4 Activator card attacks. This special may not be negated.'
if the card is removed, but the effect stays, then the KL means the battlesite team can't use activators for the remainder of game, since there is no longer anything to target.
Quote from: breadmaster on March 14, 2013, 03:52:30 PM
that's exactly my thought
if the effect doesn't go when the card goes, then KL is actually a BAD card to use against dow.
'Play during battle. Opponent cannot use Activator cards for remainder of game or until this Special has been attacked with 4 Activator card attacks. This special may not be negated.'
if the card is removed, but the effect stays, then the KL means the battlesite team can't use activators for the remainder of game, since there is no longer anything to target.
that's an interesting note. the only problem is that this particular scenario (KL vs DoW) was common in tournament days, and the ruling was always the same. I don't know if there was ever a documentation for that, but everyone knew it and played it that way :-\
Quote from: ncannelora on March 14, 2013, 03:34:46 AM
Quote from: breadmaster on March 12, 2013, 05:13:44 PM
i'm a fan of 'where the card is, the effect is'
what about KLs and dow? Opponent must immediately discard all Special cards in play that affect the "remainder of the battle" or the "remainder of the game."
since they aren't actually negating the hit (in the literal sense of the verb), but instead only removing the hit (like an AL), I'd say that any secondary effects remain.
No, when you play a KL you remove the effect as well as the card itself. To play otherwise makes this card absolutely without purpose.
I play KL against an opponent with a front line blocked off - Gambit: Charm, Beast: Acrobatics etc... and remove the cards in play, but the effect remains and I still can't attack? WTF?
I play KL against someone with EB cards still in play - I remove your Stars and Garters, but you can still shift any attack to a now non-existent card? WTF?
I could keep going, but it's quite clear how KL cards work.
that's exactly my point
i'm not saying KLs shouldn't remove the effects. they should (and do).
what i'm saying is that removing ANY card should remove all effects. i couldn't find anything in the rules to suggest otherwise. why would effects go by removing the special with one card (an KL) but not another (an AL)
Maybe it has something to do with it being a hit (Sonic Scream) versus it just being a card in play (DoW)?? Maybe secondary effects are different than effects solely generated by the card in play?
Removing a hit doesn't remove the effects of something like Super Scream because that's how it was ruled in tournaments and it is the most intuitive interpretation, even if the poorly worded guides out there fail to reinforce this. That's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes when you're playing a game that has been dead for almost 15 years and had shoddy official support even when the game was still active.
I think the ultimate issue here is that we have players who are looking for blanket effects, when rules were based on specific cards back when the game was live. Bread's example of KL vs AL is a prime example. The rulings on the AL would have be made WAY back before the KL was even a thought for the game, and when the KL came out, the AL rule would not have been revised, as it had already been established with a set method of play.
You almost have to look at the cards set by set instead of "This is worded like so, and this is worded like so, so they must have a similar effect".
judges ruled incorrectly before on BA/CD/A-Next...etc , directly contradicting the meta rules
just because something was ruled incorrectly in the past, is no reason to keep adhering to the bad ruling
EDIT:
i should also add, this isn't solely a case of an old card (AL) vs new (KL). it's about two different rulings on the same card (the newer KL). with dow, i play KL and remove the card AND its effect. with a card like vision's BM (Acts as a level 7 Fighting attack. If successful, target hero may not attack for remainder of battle.) , i remove the card with the KL (the 7), but NOT the effect (cannot attack). there's nothing in the rules i can find to support this interpretation. not to mention it doesn't make a whole lot of sense
...heh...i said 'BM'
I know it isn't worded this way on any version of the card, but does a KL effectively "negate" the effects of cards in play for remainder of battle or remainder of game?
If the KL removes the Sonic Scream hit, it removes the secondary effect, doesn't it? Just wanna be sure.
no
the way most people seem to play it, is that the KL will remove the 11, but banshee still can't attack
i'm proposing when a player removes a card, they remove all effects. i couldn't find any rules against this interpretation, and it's not like this exactly breaks game either. there's not much justification for removing the effects of DoW with a KL, but not the effects of other cards, other than 'that's the way it's always been done'
Quote from: breadmaster on March 17, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
no
the way most people seem to play it, is that the KL will remove the 11, but banshee still can't attack
i'm proposing when a player removes a card, they remove all effects. i couldn't find any rules against this interpretation, and it's not like this exactly breaks game either. there's not much justification for removing the effects of DoW with a KL, but not the effects of other cards, other than 'that's the way it's always been done'
You're creating an unnecessarily complex scenario. KL cards remove ALL effects, period.
If I play KL to remove Sonic Scream, or Vision's Intangible strike, then the card is removed from play as is the secondary effect.
The KL specials specifically state 'Discard all cards in play...' which would imply they are removed from play. It makes no sense that the card is removed from play but the effect of it remains. I don't know how this whole train of thought came about...
Of course they must contain the words - 'Remainder of battle/remainder of game.' They don't have any effect on cards without those phrases, even if it's a lasting effect.
The rules are pretty clear on this one now that I've thought about it. Cards with lasting effects remain on the table. If you used Run From Slaughter to remove Banshee's 11, it is removed from hits to current battle, but not yet discarded (sitting in play like Pretty Boy or DOW or whatever). It wouldn't go to the Dead Pile until end of battle. Nobody actually observes this and would just discard the hit if you removed it, but it technically shouldn't be discarded. People should actually observe this rule though, since it has gameplay implications (a removed Super Scream should not be able to be targeted by Webhead, Malice, etc that turn).
This gives a built in clarification for Lil' Iceman, since it says to "discard" the affected cards. Since floating effects have to be on the table to be in effect, Lil' Iceman ends the effects.
Quote from: Onslaught on March 18, 2013, 03:51:27 AM
The rules are pretty clear on this one now that I've thought about it. Cards with lasting effects remain on the table. If you used Run From Slaughter to remove Banshee's 11, it is removed from hits to current battle, but not yet discarded (sitting in play like Pretty Boy or DOW or whatever). It wouldn't go to the Dead Pile until end of battle. Nobody actually observes this and would just discard the hit if you removed it, but it technically shouldn't be discarded. People should actually observe this rule though, since it has gameplay implications (a removed Super Scream should not be able to be targeted by Webhead, Malice, etc that turn).
This gives a built in clarification for Lil' Iceman, since it says to "discard" the affected cards. Since floating effects have to be on the table to be in effect, Lil' Iceman ends the effects.
Whoa :D If you can, sir, post a link to this rule.
bios also made a good topic outlining non-numerical attacks becoming hits after they land, thus having the effects removed by an AL
which got support from people who then disagreed with that sentiment in this topic ;)
not that i'm one to talk. looking back, a couple times i've made the exact same topic multiple times...i forget so many little rules
especially the on about variants and battlesites and homebases...always mess that up
Basilisk Fang brought up an interesting point : if the mad god raises Thor or cyclops is FROG still in effect since obviously the game is still going. hmmm
Quote from: http://overpower.ca/wiki/Meta_Rule:90Specials which alter a Character's abilities/skills that have a lasting duration are discarded when the Character is K.O.'d. Should the Character be resurrected or brought back into play later in the game, the discarded Special would not be in effect. Specials with a lasting duration that do not alter a Character (but affect the opponent or a teammate(s), etc.) remain in play after the Character playing the Special has been K.O.'d.
Thanks Jack for all you help on this site AND the others too. I appreciate all you do for our community. Kudos