I was always under the impression that White Queen's Telepathic Manipulator could be played defensively. According to the wiki it is not. Can I get an official Canadian tournament ruling?
Wiki.
Quote from: Jack on January 12, 2013, 12:03:08 PM
Wiki.
I always believed this card could be played either offensively or defensively. At what point did this change?
well
its an attack for one thing
considering it forces a character to lose placed cards and move into reserve thus making them unable to attack
good to play after her http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1493.png ;)
Quote from: steve2275 on January 12, 2013, 01:50:40 PM
its an attack for one thing
It
can be an attack, yes; however, just as Trick Transport (DZ), it can be used on a teammate. Trick Transport used to be played defensively, and unless I'm mistaken, (DZ) became an offensive-only card due to an errata rule by the OP Legion. (Similar to Vertigo being errata'd to Offensive-Only)
I do not recall Telepathic Manipulator having an errata ruling established limiting it's ability to be played defensively.
I didn't check the actual Tournament Guide on this, which states:
QuoteIA (both) - When played offensively, target character must discard all placed cards and move into reserve, regardless of if there already is a character in reserve. Target character may still play cards that normally can be played from reserve. When played defensively, target character may only be character playing the Special or a teammate of the character and still must discard all placed cards and move into reserve. Additionally, any attacks that targeted the character are avoided unless they could have targeted the character while in reserve. If more than one character is in reserve, the player chooses which one to move back up to the front line at the end of the current battle. If conditions dictate, both characters must advance to the front line.
There was some editorial work done on the description which removed the line about playing defensively.
On the meta rules, it was stated to be only offensive -- which is why it was removed. I can't see why it would be limited to offensive only. Unless BBH has something to say, I'm going to correct the wiki entry and make the card offensive and defensive.
On a personal note, my preferred method of dealing with DZ/LN would be to make them like HQ and blanket them as OPD but allow them to be played defensively. White Queen's IA is already OPD and fits the criteria. But then there's Dazzler's IA which makes it a mess.
I'm glad you found that definition Jack. It is in line with what I recall from playing, back in the day. I would definitely want an official ruling for the tournament coming up in Buffalo. If I show up under the impression that I CAN play the card defensively, then am told "no, that's now how we play it..." I will be ever so slightly disappointed. Thanks for the help!
doesn't seem like it should be defensive to me. the first entry from the tournament guide says 'play on your turn'. also, the fact that it's targetted.
The proper tournament guide description was posted above. There is no 'play on your turn'.
that's interesting. it's worded very similarly to the DZ cards, which aren't defensive though
Quote from: breadmaster on January 12, 2013, 04:22:34 PM
that's interesting. it's worded very similarly to the DZ cards, which aren't defensive though
It's true that they were worded similarly; however, DZ was able to be played defensively and subsequently errata'd. IA was not, thus leaving it offensive or defensive.
My guess is that IA is OPD and DZ/FA isn't.
Quote from: Jack on January 12, 2013, 05:14:49 PM
My guess is that IA is OPD and DZ/FA isn't.
Would it be treated as a OPD in a tournament? Even the Dazzler card?
White Queen's card is already OPD. DZ/FA will stay with the errata and non-OPD. Dazzler's card has some rules (http://overpower.ca/archive/Ripayuheadoff/marvelguide/IA.html) attach to it.
There won't be any rule changes to make non-OPD cards into OPD. That would be stepping into the boundaries of house rules which I don't want to get into (BBH did that to LN in his rules with halcyon1234)
Quote from: Jack on January 12, 2013, 06:49:01 PM
White Queen's card is already OPD. DZ/FA will stay with the errata and non-OPD. Dazzler's card has some rules (http://overpower.ca/archive/Ripayuheadoff/marvelguide/IA.html) attach to it.
Where did these rules come from?
Those were the rules recommended by Nick Williams, from The Reserves.
Telepathic Manipulator is NOT playable defensively.
It fell under the same change as the Trick Transport, and the updated meta rules reflect that. Although, I think there'd be a case for using it defensively under the same circumstances as Dazzler's, given that it bears the same code and similar effect.
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on January 12, 2013, 09:09:45 PM
Telepathic Manipulator is NOT playable defensively.
It fell under the same change as the Trick Transport, and the updated meta rules reflect that. Although, I think there'd be a case for using it defensively under the same circumstances as Dazzler's, given that it bears the same code and similar effect.
-BBH
Please post the legion's most updated metta rules.
Quote from: BigBadHarve on January 12, 2013, 09:09:45 PM
Telepathic Manipulator is NOT playable defensively.
It fell under the same change as the Trick Transport, and the updated meta rules reflect that. Although, I think there'd be a case for using it defensively under the same circumstances as Dazzler's, given that it bears the same code and similar effect.
-BBH
I honestly never even thought that any IA card could be played defensively. It obviously comes down to the meta/tournament rules, but I was under the impression "Target" made it ineligible for defense. You can only target something as a "on your turn" action. I'm sure there's plenty of cards which make this impression bullcrud.
However, I do see how it could be played defensively, since after it resolves, the character is now in a position that makes the attack ineligible.
Does a ruling on this card in any way change the defensive status of MN (Thing: Aunt Petunia: Thing may not attack or be attacked for remainder of battle.)
FA cards were part of the DZ and LN ruling:
Quote from: http://overpower.ca/wiki/Updated_Rules#Specials_coded_FASpecials coded FA
Specials coded FA can no longer be played defensively. You must play it on your turn as an offensive action.
Example: Thing's Aunt Petunia
Quote from: DiceK on January 12, 2013, 09:55:30 PM
Please post the legion's most updated metta rules.
It's under the specials guide, by code. Jack has it online here:
http://overpower.ca/pages/meta.php
Each special is listed by code with its attack/defense capabilities plus applicable Meta rules.
-BBH
I'm going to drop this, because I'm not going to use WQ or Dazzler at the tournament in Buffalo.
Thanks for the debate anyway.
Why not just say only defensively if WQ is the target of the attack, then she can only target herself or the attacker with the card?
Quote from: BasiliskFang on January 16, 2013, 05:44:49 AM
Why not just say only defensively if WQ is the target of the attack, then she can only target herself or the attacker with the card?
Even if you could play it defensively, you CANNOT do it by targeting the attacker. Two reasons:
1) Defensive specials can only target the character, their teammates, or the Opponent. (Though, I think I have that third one wrong-- you play an Opponent May Not card. You can't play Target Character May Not. You can only place I Cannot Be Attacked With cards).
2) It's too late to play it. The attack's been made. Stuffing the attacker into reserve doesn't prevent the attack from happening. Basically, you can change how the target may be attacked, but not how the the attacker may attack.
Then the wording is dumb. Only defensively on herself? And against the opponent on an opposing hero on your own turn.
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1495.png)
where on there is any thing that says or would imply "defensively"
Steve, where does dazzler's? http://overpower.ca/tools/quickspecials.php?code=IA
And no, the name of the card should not be considered, attack cards aren't called berserk attack, gamma terror attack.
http://overpower.ca/archive/Ripayuheadoff/marvelguide/IA.html
Dazzlers is better even if wq's is opd? That's unfair.
Quote2) It's too late to play it. The attack's been made. Stuffing the attacker into reserve doesn't prevent the attack from happening. Basically, you can change how the target may be attacked, but not how the the attacker may attack.
that was the exact same excuse I said when I learned cd (beast acrobatics) could be played defensively.
Only "x" type of attacks can be made against "Y" frob.
This sounds like after the fact too.
i agree that rebel defense can be played defensively
an attack is anything that affects your opponent or his characters and im sure being forced to discard cards is an attack
and im sure that being manipulated is an attack
QuoteAnd no, the name of the card should not be considered, attack cards aren't called berserk attack, gamma terror attack.
abomination http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/16.png and wolverine http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1503.pngdont agree with you ;)
Quote from: BasiliskFang on January 17, 2013, 10:35:19 AM
Quote2) It's too late to play it. The attack's been made. Stuffing the attacker into reserve doesn't prevent the attack from happening. Basically, you can change how the target may be attacked, but not how the the attacker may attack.
that was the exact same excuse I said when I learned cd (beast acrobatics) could be played defensively.
Only "x" type of attacks can be made against "Y" frob.
This sounds like after the fact too.
Not quite the same thing. Imagine a grenade. Your opponent throws a grenade at you. Your choices are now:
1) Do nothing. Get hit by a grenade.
2) Dodge (avoid) the grenade
3) Knock the grenade away (block with a power card)
4) Take cover in a grenade-proof shelter (acrobatics)
What you can't do:
1) Shoot your opponent. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (Target hero may not attack)
2) Blow up your opponents' grenade box. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (Target hero must discard a card)
3) Sign a no-grenade pact with your opponent. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (Opponent may not play [X] cards for remainder of battle)
4) Surrender. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (New Universe)
Basically, you can change how your character can be attacked, but you can't change how your opponent may attack. Using that logic, and given the wording on the card, Tel Man
should be allowed to be played defensively on White Queen or her teammate. The usual caveat the the official rules often eschewed logic and wording.
good post hal :)
halcyon1234, I feel like maybe you misunderstand the defensive use of this card...
let's say Wolvie attacks White Queen. if WQ then wants to use the IA-Special defensively, she wouldn't be putting it on Wolvie, she'd be putting it on herself.
so, conceptually, it's EXACTLY the same as Acrobatics, escaping to a safe place (in this case, Reserve). this is why there was a further explanation in the tournament guide. e.g., if Cable attacked WQ with his Bionic Eye (AP-code, I think), then the IA-Special is NOT an effective defense, because the AP card would still hit her in Reserve.
Quote from: ncannelora on January 17, 2013, 03:00:32 PM
halcyon1234, I feel like maybe you misunderstand the defensive use of this card...
let's say Wolvie attacks White Queen. if WQ then wants to use the IA-Special defensively, she wouldn't be putting it on Wolvie, she'd be putting it on herself.
so, conceptually, it's EXACTLY the same as Acrobatics, escaping to a safe place (in this case, Reserve). this is why there was a further explanation in the tournament guide. e.g., if Cable attacked WQ with his Bionic Eye (AP-code, I think), then the IA-Special is NOT an effective defense, because the AP card would still hit her in Reserve.
No, I get that part. She's putting herself or a teammate into reserve to avoid the attack. But the point was also raised if you can play TM onto the attacker to drive them into reserve and thus prevent the attack. The former, yes. The latter no, never, even if Telepathic Manipulator could be played defensively.
so the sub rule for IA (Dazzler) says: http://overpower.ca/archive/Ripayuheadoff/marvelguide/IA.html
QuoteThis Special may only be played defensively if all of the following are true:
1. Dazzler is the target of the opponent's attack.
2. The target (Teammate) of this Special plays a Power card that Dazzler could not play to defend the attack.
3. There is not already a Character in Reserve who could play that same Power card to defend Dazzler.
Do these still apply today?
Would #1 apply if I were using it from a battlesite?
I feel #2/3 are nulled if you are using this from a battlesite because 2/3 depend specifically on Dazzler's inherit ability.
It is this reason I feel White Queen's should be able to be played defensively, against the attacker.
It is OPD, so it should function better than Dazzler's which isn't OPD.
It can target a hero, not just a teammate. (I may be unclear here, but would WQ be her own teammate?)
Quote from: halcyon1234 on January 17, 2013, 03:04:33 PM
No, I get that part. She's putting herself or a teammate into reserve to avoid the attack. But the point was also raised if you can play TM onto the attacker to drive them into reserve and thus prevent the attack. The former, yes. The latter no, never, even if Telepathic Manipulator could be played defensively.
gotcha.
I'm still suspicious of the DZ being played on a teammate at all (especially given the context and art). But, as long as it's a legal action, it (and FA for that matter) and the IA cards should all be defensive. Otherwise, it does seem to me that the BJ/CD/AH wouldn't be defensive either :-\
cards that say no or only
can be used defensively
course neither of the IA specials say those words
Didn't jack resolve this as can be played defensively on your own character and the hit is defended as long as said attack couldn't hit you in reserve.
Quote from: halcyon1234 on January 17, 2013, 12:46:30 PM
Quote from: BasiliskFang on January 17, 2013, 10:35:19 AM
Quote2) It's too late to play it. The attack's been made. Stuffing the attacker into reserve doesn't prevent the attack from happening. Basically, you can change how the target may be attacked, but not how the the attacker may attack.
that was the exact same excuse I said when I learned cd (beast acrobatics) could be played defensively.
Only "x" type of attacks can be made against "Y" frob.
This sounds like after the fact too.
I would just like to say... that this is a great way to judge the defensive use of a card. Love this.
Not quite the same thing. Imagine a grenade. Your opponent throws a grenade at you. Your choices are now:
1) Do nothing. Get hit by a grenade.
2) Dodge (avoid) the grenade
3) Knock the grenade away (block with a power card)
4) Take cover in a grenade-proof shelter (acrobatics)
What you can't do:
1) Shoot your opponent. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (Target hero may not attack)
2) Blow up your opponents' grenade box. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (Target hero must discard a card)
3) Sign a no-grenade pact with your opponent. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (Opponent may not play [X] cards for remainder of battle)
4) Surrender. Too late. There's still a grenade coming at you. (New Universe)
Basically, you can change how your character can be attacked, but you can't change how your opponent may attack. Using that logic, and given the wording on the card, Tel Man should be allowed to be played defensively on White Queen or her teammate. The usual caveat the the official rules often eschewed logic and wording.