'Age of Apocalypse's team may rearrange all Hits in the Permanent Records of all Front Line Characters.'
i've chatted with a few people about this, and i've gotten different responses
should AoA be able to rearrange hits on the opponent as well? (all front line characters). the tournament guide says nothing
a similarly worded card is kree's yon-rogg
'Move all Hits from Current Battle into the Permanent Records of all Characters. Affects Venture total. (GF)'
the wording is different, but this one affects both players
I took it to mean both sides, for both cards. the only rule I'd say about the Aspect, is that the hits can't cross enemy lines ;D
that was my thinking too. both teams, no crossover
i know others feel differently, so i'd like to hear from the other side
I believe in another thread we talked about specials referring to front line mean YOUR front line, unless specified on the card, but I'm not sure...
As much as I'd love Historical twist to affect both sides, I'm pretty sure it only affects the AoA team that's playing it.
I can't find any rules to support that, but I'm confident that was the intent of the card.
The text is referencing the AoA team, not the opponent.
that's one interpretation for sure
another is that the early text is only referencing who gets to decide which hits are moved where
I'm actually torn about this. I know it SHOULD refer to only your frontline. But if so, it should have said "Teammates'". Meta 31:
"When a Special refers to a teammate, it means another Character on your team (unless the text of the Special indicates otherwise) that is not the Character who played the Special. If the Special is referring to all of the Character's teammates, then it does include the Reserve Character. If it is referring to what can be done with a specific teammate, then it applies only to the Front Line Characters. It never means the Battlesite or the Home Base."
I think the saving grace here is the aspect's wording "'Age of Apocalypse's team may..."
If you read it so that the first part of the effect defines the scope of Characters, it works. "Play this card. It effects AoA's team. Those characters it is effecting may rearrange hits, but only amongst those effected characters that are in the Front Line."
I really don't understand why there is debate on this. It says all. It does not restrict in any way. Unless there is some kind of documented ruling or Meta Rule for this card, it really should be affecting all Front Line Characters, including the opponent's.
Was there a ruling somewhere? Tournament Guide?
What I don't understand is why people who never played the game when rulings like these were commonly discussed and definitively answered think that there is something to debate. This is one that I'm 100% positive on, people played it the wrong way a lot (rearranging hits on opponent's frontline, or in some whacky extreme cases I even heard of people thinking that you could move hits from YOUR frontline onto their frontline), so it is something that caused a bit of confusion at the time. But it was resolved. Sorry if there isn't an AOL chat circa 1999 definitively answering your question about a niche card from a relatively unknown game.
Quote from: Onslaught on March 19, 2013, 04:51:14 PM
What I don't understand is why people who never played the game when rulings like these were commonly discussed and definitively answered think that there is something to debate. This is one that I'm 100% positive on, people played it the wrong way a lot (rearranging hits on opponent's frontline, or in some whacky extreme cases I even heard of people thinking that you could move hits from YOUR frontline onto their frontline), so it is something that caused a bit of confusion at the time. But it was resolved. Sorry if there isn't an AOL chat circa 1999 definitively answering your question about a niche card from a relatively unknown game.
you mad, bro?
Quote from: Onslaught on March 19, 2013, 04:51:14 PM
What I don't understand is why people who never played the game when rulings like these were commonly discussed and definitively answered think that there is something to debate. This is one that I'm 100% positive on, people played it the wrong way a lot (rearranging hits on opponent's frontline, or in some whacky extreme cases I even heard of people thinking that you could move hits from YOUR frontline onto their frontline), so it is something that caused a bit of confusion at the time. But it was resolved. Sorry if there isn't an AOL chat circa 1999 definitively answering your question about a niche card from a relatively unknown game.
really?
you can't understand why people who didn't play the game when these rulings were made, debate how they should be played, when there isn't any evidence anywhere today of how they should be played
...really? you can't be serious
as far as judges rulings...those carry little weight. california judges ruled that an ally follow was an attack made WITH a universe card, despite the meta, influencing players' interpretation of the rules up to present.
you can't say in one topic, 'play what's on the card', then in another, 'play how i remember it, and ignore what's on the card'
If you think that the card references all characters, then by the same logic you have to also think that would apply for all hits. So there actually is no valid interpretation that would end up with "rearrange all your frontline hits, and rearrange all their frontline hits." The only choices are "rearrange your frontline hits, the end" or "rearrange all hits onto any characters you want." Those are your choices, and the latter is obviously ridiculously broken and would have been abused by everyone if that was how the card was played.
that's a good point, and supports your interpretation
guess deabating wasn't so pointless after all...
One time I read a tournament report where someone WAS playing it like that, and it was completely hilarious/absurd. I wish I had shit like that saved (especially anything from AoA message boards), because it would be pretty funny to read now. It was basically like
Round 1 - "So I took some hits then played my aspect and won my friend Brody got really mad"
1-0
Round 2- "This was a close one but then I played my aspect and KOed two of his characters, close call and they said I was cheesey"
2-0
Etc..
Quote from: Onslaught on March 19, 2013, 07:23:19 PM
If you think that the card references all characters, then by the same logic you have to also think that would apply for all hits. So there actually is no valid interpretation that would end up with "rearrange all your frontline hits, and rearrange all their frontline hits." The only choices are "rearrange your frontline hits, the end" or "rearrange all hits onto any characters you want." Those are your choices, and the latter is obviously ridiculously broken and would have been abused by everyone if that was how the card was played.
This is actually not true.
Playing it "as written" would, in fact, mean that all hits on both Front Lines could be rearranged however the player desired, including crossing the battle line. That is true, because "all" is not exclusive and there was poor punctuation written in the card. I agree that it would be ridiculously poor form if that was, in fact, how this card was/is played.
Having said that, it would need some form of editing, like an errata. At that point, the writer of the errata would need to limit the power of the card. They could "nerf" it to say that the player can rearrange all hits on his own front line, or on "each" front line, implying that the hits cannot be swapped between the two opponents' characters.
Either the card is being played "as written" or someone is going to "nerf" it based on... whatever they feel like, I guess. :-\
I am tired of this 'play as written' bullshit. How about you play by the actual rules for once?
Ncant, why do you even care? AoA has villains on it, thus it will never be used in your godly home-game.
End of rant, carry on with your stupid ass rules bantering even though nobody here actually played in a real sanctioned tournament with real judges before, where shit like this was common knoledge that everyone in the tournament knew about. Sorry it wasent documented as a meta-rule, but there is already 150 of those, not every card needed a meta-rule.
Use common sense, dont play cards to break the game.
Carry on, i said.
-DRDEATH25
Quote from: drdeath25 on March 19, 2013, 10:10:42 PM
Ncant, why do you even care? AoA has villains on it, thus it will never be used in your godly home-game.
(http://i.imgur.com/JXdPqfJ.jpg)
one of the real shames with this card is that it goes from ridiculously broken on one side (hits crossing), to completely useless on the other (arranging only your own hits)
if the effect at least lasted the battle like vertigo, it would be good. how often do you have 2 hits on each front line character to move around...
Play it with Martyr for the Cause, hope it hurts your opponent more than it hurts you, then play the aspect afterwards to spread around the hits you just sucked in. Shrug. It's still a decent aspect, like you could move two hits onto Dark Beast to make him a target when you had an Acrobatics in hand.
TBH AoA is a great homebase anyway (dual negate lineup with X-Man + Invisible Woman inherent ability is rock solid), so it didn't really deserve a good Aspect anyway. Especially considering some of the super joke homebases that didn't even get an Aspect at all in X-Men...
What I don't understand is why carry aggression and make things personal when we're all a community of brothers here. I'm not talking about playful quips in good taste, usually noted with something like ;) or :P. That's all in good fun. I'm talking about uppercuts. Agree, disagree... none of that matters, really. We all love this game... why not love each other in a brotherly, gentlemanlike manner?
You guys are my closest associates right now... after all of my life and community obligations are met, THIS is the place I visit the most... The Palatinus OverPower Forum. I CHOOSE to spend my free time reading and posting because I ENJOY not only this game but also you guys! I love the debate... its alot of fun, I've learned a great deal from many of you who have given me your time and opinions, and you guys all have great insights and raise relevant points and counterpoints. The game's ruleset is incomplete... which is why we can have a 6 page debate on a Longshot card that I've never even played before. But that's all it is... a debate. Why take a shot at ncannelora for his faith when it has nothing to do with the aspect in question? This would make me feel disrespected, and as a man, would likely make me want to spend my free time elsewhere. No tears, no vengeance... it isn't about being the victim. But why intentionally make someone feel unwelcome when they're a part of an already small community that will only survive as long as we keep building it. If we tear each other down, we tear down the OverPower community. I have as much respect for any of you guys as I do my friends and family here at home. I can't imagine how or in what way I would be needed, but I would do just about anything for any of you and for no reason other than I like you guys. I don't need to know you guys personally to care about ya. You build friendships over time. If I could afford it, I'd buy a plane ticket every month, set aside a weekend, fly to meet each one of you and have superhero slugfests all night long because I love this game and I love meeting cool people. I would play by any ruling anyone wanted to, and I would have a great time winning OR losing against any of you, as long as we're respecting one another and having a good time. This is also how I prefer to post.
I am thrilled that there are still so many guys playing OverPower, with its discontinued printing and hard to discern rulings. Think about what's going on here guys... new sets are being printed, tournaments are being organized... all because of cooperation. To have a good debate, it involves cooperation of the opposing perspectives to respect one another and hear one another out in hopes of carrying the discussion to its furthest end and make a judgment call, whereas an argument is totally noncompliant. If someone posts a reply that differs from mine, it doesn't mean that they're upset with me, it means they disagree. Someone mentioned in another thread that even though a guy felt screwed out of some cards in a purchase they should let it go for the sake of keeping the game strong in the community. I believe that applies here. Maybe in California the ruling on a card is different than a ruling in Toronto, or Tennessee or Australia... so lets talk about it. Lets debate it. But we don't have to fight and we certainly don't have to insult anyone when they've shown their sound character. I don't usually get the final word in any discussion on this board, but I'm humbly happy to accept that and enjoy being a part of the group.
that's true. i guess you could also intentionally KO a couple characters through switching and venture ftw knowing you have a block off on beast
also, nicely said troop
Quote from: drdeath25 on March 19, 2013, 10:10:42 PM
I am tired of this 'play as written' bullshit. How about you play by the actual rules for once?
Ncant, why do you even care? AoA has villains on it, thus it will never be used in your godly home-game.
End of rant, carry on with your stupid ass rules bantering even though nobody here actually played in a real sanctioned tournament with real judges before, where shit like this was common knoledge that everyone in the tournament knew about. Sorry it wasent documented as a meta-rule, but there is already 150 of those, not every card needed a meta-rule.
Use common sense, dont play cards to break the game.
Carry on, i said.
-DRDEATH25
first of all, I didn't bring up the "play as written" angle. I actually think this card should not be played as written. from there, though, I'm pointing out that the alternative is not, in fact, limited to one other option.
secondly, I care because I finally have a decent print of a Blink Hero card. Blink, X-Man, Morph, Shadowcat = good guys. also, I care because in my circle there are others who use bad guys on the regular, so it's good to know where the official ruling is and, short of that, it's good to know how others think of it.
lastly, was the phrase, "End of rant," the title of that run on sentence of that paragraph? or am I confused about what it means to end a rant?
Quote from: Onslaught on March 19, 2013, 11:44:04 PM
TBH AoA is a great homebase anyway (dual negate lineup with X-Man + Invisible Woman inherent ability is rock solid), so it didn't really deserve a good Aspect anyway. Especially considering some of the super joke homebases that didn't even get an Aspect at all in X-Men...
(http://overpower.ca/cards/homebases/1.png)
Invisible Woman isnt even on the card ;)
and its topics like these that are the reason why just use icon attacks
AGE OF APOCALYPSE
* HISTORICAL TWIST (B4) <XM> {R} [OPD]
Age of Apocalypse's team may rearrange all Hits in the Permanent
Records of all Front Line Characters.
and yeah should say teammates
i see what ya mean dem
@steve2275
Quote from: Onslaught on March 19, 2013, 11:44:04 PM
TBH AoA is a great homebase anyway (dual negate lineup with X-Man + Invisible Woman inherent ability is rock solid), so it didn't really deserve a good Aspect anyway. Especially considering some of the super joke homebases that didn't even get an Aspect at all in X-Men...
You are reading it wrong... read it like this...
AoA is a great homebase anyway (dual negate lineup (Holocaust and Dark Beast) + X-Man + an inherent ability similar to Invisible Woman's is rock solid),
look, it's not even about "need" is it? I thought this was supposed to be a twist of historic proportions... I realize it's still cool to be able to rearrange your own hits however you want, but I'm just saying that there is no documentation showing that this card was actually nerf'd, and there's no documentation of how it was nerf'd... so I'm just arguing that it's debatable in both regards (whether or not it should be; if so, how)
Late to the party but is the aspect a one time deal or since it is opd its a FROG like a retro active vertigo once a battle?