'Acts as a level 4 Strength or Intellect attack. Attack is not affected by Special cards already in play.'
Meta #162 If a card "cannot be defended" by a specific type of card then the opponent may not play any cards of that type during the defensive action of that attack (but cards which are already in play can be used). If a card "is not affected" by a specific type of card, then cards of that type may be used during the defensive action, but any cards already in play before the attack was made are considered not in play until the defensive action is resolved.
if my site is DoW'd, and you play this special, do you think i can play an activator to defend? usually this card hurts the defender, but nothing seems to state that it can't help them too
Quote from: breadmaster on April 07, 2013, 08:47:25 PM
'Acts as a level 4 Strength or Intellect attack. Attack is not affected by Special cards already in play.'
Meta #162 If a card "cannot be defended" by a specific type of card then the opponent may not play any cards of that type during the defensive action of that attack (but cards which are already in play can be used). If a card "is not affected" by a specific type of card, then cards of that type may be used during the defensive action, but any cards already in play before the attack was made are considered not in play until the defensive action is resolved.
if my site is DoW'd, and you play this special, do you think i can play an activator to defend? usually this card hurts the defender, but nothing seems to state that it can't help them too
to riff off this a little, let's say Dazzler and Professor X are on a team together. if his BG is in play (+2 to all actions), and I play Dazzler's NJ, does it NOT get the bonus?
that seems accurate (in both instances), but it does feel weird...
you're right, it DOES feel weird ;)
i'd agree that the +2 gets ignored too
i was thinking more about these babies after harv crippled me with one in buffalo (went through a block off for the kill, i couldn't shift to stars and garters, and had to use my only power card to defend which made a tw unusable :()
You couldn't exchange a dazzler activator for this card even if DOW was in play, could you? :o
I would think the DoW restriction on the Activators would prevent them from getting to the battlesite to pull out the NJ special.
DoW doesn't state that Specials from under the battlesite cannot be played, it states that the opponent cannot use activators FROG until 4 had been used to attack DoW.
Quote from: Demacus on April 10, 2013, 03:37:19 PM
I would think the DoW restriction on the Activators would prevent them from getting to the battlesite to pull out the NJ special.
DoW doesn't state that Specials from under the battlesite cannot be played, it states that the opponent cannot use activators FROG until 4 had been used to attack DoW.
That's valid. The BG thing is what is the most strange to me ???
yeah. i'd agree that the NJ can't be played offensively through dow. you'd have to be able to play the card to get the effect, and there's no way to access it with dow out
as weird as the BG cancelling, and using activators via a devoured site to defend is, i couldn't find anything to suggest the restriction on NJ can't help the defender
Quote from: breadmaster on April 10, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
yeah. i'd agree that the NJ can't be played offensively through dow. you'd have to be able to play the card to get the effect, and there's no way to access it with dow out
as weird as the BG cancelling, and using activators via a devoured site to defend is, i couldn't find anything to suggest the restriction on NJ can't help the defender
yeah, you are correct. if NJ is being played against an Opponent, whose Battlesite is DoW'd, the NJ attack should "cancel" the DoW while the Opponent is resolving the NJ attack. Once the NJ is played, all other Special cards that were already in play should be considered "negated" - even DoW.
Quote from: breadmaster on April 10, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
yeah. i'd agree that the NJ can't be played offensively through dow. you'd have to be able to play the card to get the effect, and there's no way to access it with dow out
as weird as the BG cancelling, and using activators via a devoured site to defend is, i couldn't find anything to suggest the restriction on NJ can't help the defender
Makes sense. Now I'm wondering if an activator could be played to access a EI special after the opponent has conceded. Technically, you couldn't 'play the activator at that time even if the special it draws could be played.
I see where you are coming from, and it does seem to make sense, that, as the NJ special is not affected by other specials already in play, would an NJ special really "negate" an affect that wasn't directly interfering with the NJ special, had it been allowed to interfere?
I completely understand and agree with the sentiment that, via an NJ special, a Charm'd (BJ) defender could still be attacked by an NJ, but under normal circumstances, the attacking special would be shut down by the defending BJ.
The same would hold true in the case of the EB specials, which the NJ special could not be shifted to, thus nullifying the attack.
Arguing that a BG or CM special would not hinder or help the NJ also makes sense.
The NJ special specifically states that "Attack is not affected by Special cards already in play." And while I have no rules, meta or otherwise, to back up my logic here, I don't see why an NJ special being played would allow someone locked down with a DoW to defend via his battlesite, and although DoW IS a special card already it play, it's text has no bearing on attempting to alter the NJ Special card's "attack," which is what the NJ Special defends against, Specials already in play cannot affect the attack itself. It does not negate all Specials in play for the duration of the attack.
Any JF Special cards already in play would not cease to be for the duration of the NJ special. A BZ special already on the table would not allow you to pick your hand back up for the duration of the NJ special, and then be returned to the field after the resolution of the attack. And what of the angle of having Iceman and Dazzler on the same team? Would you want to play an NJ you've drawn into somehow after you've already Snow Blinded your opponent? Would your opponent no longer be -1 to all actions for the duration of the NJ attack coming at him, even though in this instance the Snow Blind does not damper the NJ special, but the opponent the NJ special is aimed at?
The NJ special doesn't not, in effect, "Negate" effects already in play, it simply cannot be hindered by effects which would otherwise hinder it because they were already in play, or in the case of the BG specials already mentioned this thread, cannot be assisted by effects already in play (though I really think that would suck to lose a BG boost, I definitely feel this was designed to be more of a defense breaker then a stand alone attack, but i can see that argument going either way.)
Feel free to continue discussing this very interesting angle...
the way it was explained to me, was that any specials in play are considered not to be in play until resolved. so a card like spawn's living costume (Target Teammate may play any Spawn Special cards for remainder of game) would be ignored, and you couldn't avoid the incoming attack with spawn's AD (unless spawn was still alive)
I understand the Living Costume angle, as it would allow a character access to cards he would otherwise not have, and the NJ blasts it's way through "unnatural" defenses granted by the Living Costume, similar to the "unnatural" defenses granted by the Charm, Stars and Garters, ect, ect...
It would be kind of cool if the defending player, who's battlesite was locked by a DoW, COULD access a defense in the instance of an NJ special incoming, but I don't think that it's supposed to be that literal. I'm also fairly certain that if there is a BG in play before you attack with the NJ, you would still benefit from the +2 bonus that the BG provides to the team's actions. Again, I have nothing more then fair play and common sense to back up my point of view.
To quote Ncann and yourself...
If this is accurate play, it feels weird.
In the instance of an AV hitting Dazzler, can she play the NJ special to attack?
If Adam Warlock were to Soul Gem someone OTHER then Dazzler, could she still attack with her NJ special, to whomever she likes?
I feel like there are some exceptions to the rule of "while the NJ is in play, all specials already in play are treated like they are not."
for sure. finding out venture trumps ko was also weird though ;)
i'm not sure that interpreting it different is somehow 'unfair' or 'not common sense'.
Quote from: breadmaster on April 11, 2013, 05:31:39 PM
for sure. finding out venture trumps ko was also weird though ;)
Ain't that the truth...
All I meant by "fair play" and "common sense" was that to me, and how I've always played Overpower, this particular angle seems off... but again, that's just how it feels to me.
the warlock and AV ones you added aren't applicable though
you have to be able to play the special to get the effect. the effect isn't in play before you play it
it seems you COULD soul gem your opponent through dazzler, and then attack someone else with the NJ, thought it would have to be a rare situation to benefit from that (i guess is you already ko'd your target)
Great discussion guys. To throw my two cents in, I would play this at home via Demacus logic.
It makes sense that NJ gets around Charm, perhaps even Soul Gem (either case), AV's and such, and it even makes sense that you would NOT get the bonus from your teammates BG (I don't like it, but it would make sense)... but the DoW limits the use of activators, so you wouldn't have access to the NJ for it to be unnaffected by DoW from your site until DoW was removed.
Shifting gears just a tad, I think there could've been another word in the text of the NJ saying "not affected by OPPONENTS special cards already in play." Wouldn't that have been better?
Ahh, the word "Opponent's..." Yet again you fail to find purchase where you should have been... You could have made a LOT of cards much clearer, had you only taken the time to actually show up, and not be inferred...
ah, something we can ALL agree on! :)
This belongs in the errata thread I started.:)
My take on some of these scenarios, some of which may be summaries:
NJ's would allow for an activator defense (with DoW in play) because it completely ignores the DoW in play.
Exchanging for the NJ if it's in, say, The Outbacks, is not allowed if DoW is in play because the act of exchanging the Activator for a special is restricted.
If FD (Soul Gem) is in play, with Dazzler either: not targetted by the FD, or didn't play the FD (somehow), Pinpoint Laser can still be thrown by her to anyone on the other side. Again because the special completely disregards the special in play.
It obviously sneaks past a BJ (Charm, etc.), AH/CD or a CW (Illusory Reality) if it's already in play, it doesn't prevent it from being avoided by such cards. Very common tactic used to hit against lock down teams.
It doesn't pick up the +2 from a BG because it ignores it.
It cannot be shifted with Vertigo or EB specials either.
Living Costume doesn't work.
Quote from: Jack on April 13, 2013, 11:15:15 AM
My take on some of these scenarios, some of which may be summaries:
It cannot be shifted with Vertigo or EB specials either.
since you mentioned them
NJ still passes those if those if they were played before the NJ right?
and that is all i have to say :)
Quote from: Jack on April 13, 2013, 11:15:15 AM
My take on some of these scenarios, some of which may be summaries:
NJ's would allow for an activator defense (with DoW in play) because it completely ignores the DoW in play.
Exchanging for the NJ if it's in, say, The Outbacks, is not allowed if DoW is in play because the act of exchanging the Activator for a special is restricted.
If FD (Soul Gem) is in play, with Dazzler either: not targetted by the FD, or didn't play the FD (somehow), Pinpoint Laser can still be thrown by her to anyone on the other side. Again because the special completely disregards the special in play.
It obviously sneaks past a BJ (Charm, etc.), AH/CD or a CW (Illusory Reality) if it's already in play, it doesn't prevent it from being avoided by such cards. Very common tactic used to hit against lock down teams.
It doesn't pick up the +2 from a BG because it ignores it.
It cannot be shifted with Vertigo or EB specials either.
Living Costume doesn't work.
Jack,
1. If Dazzler was not the target of Soul Gem, could she still make the pinpoint laser attack, even though she isn't permitted to attack because of the Soul Gem?
2. Can you breakdown why Living Costume wouldn't allow you to avoid an NJ attack with Spawn's teammate? Living Costume doesn't seem to be affecting the NJ, so the NJ wouldn't "ignore" it. I'm a little confused on how that works.
Thanks buddy.:)
"Attack is not affected by Special cards already in play." translates to "ignore all special cards and attack". At least that's how I understand it:
Quote from: Meta #162If a card "cannot be defended" by a specific type of card then the opponent may not play any cards of that type during the defensive action of that attack (but cards which are already in play can be used). If a card "is not affected" by a specific type of card, then cards of that type may be used during the defensive action, but any cards already in play before the attack was made are considered not in play until the defensive action is resolved.
For #1: Soul Gem isn't in play, so there isn't the restriction that "Adam Warlock" and "Target Character" are the only ones who could attack or be attacked.
For #2: Living Costume doesn't directly affect the NJ but the meta rules say otherwise.
So because Living Costume is being involved to play the card that would defend the NJ, it also is affecting the defense of it?
Correct.
i disagree with it ignoring soul gem. to bypass it, you'd have to have the effect before the card is actually played. if that was indeed the case, it would bypass AVs too
I goofed, the action of throwing out the Special is restricted by the FD/AV. So yes, Dazzler wouldn't play it unless she was the target of the Soul Gem. However, she doesn't have to target Adam Warlock.