So I was playing my brother with a fun crossover villains team of Dr Octopus, Joker, Two-Face, and Kingpin(R) (you know, two madmen and two crimebosses, I love themes!). At one point late in the battle I attempted to use Two-Face's BQ to grab a Joker special, and my brother reminded me of meta-rule #71:
QuoteWhen a Special allows a Character to select a card from the Dead Pile and the Special is Character specific (i.e., not an Any Hero/Character) and the Special does not indicate whether or not the card must be usable, then the card drawn from the Dead Pile must be usable by the Character playing the Special.
Okay, now I don't want to start some meta-rule bashing here (although that certainly has its uses), but I honestly don't understand why they restricted this card, specifically because it only applies to 3 characters! Now let's take a quick look at them.
So, she is a dual-grid 8 with a teammate avoid, good. Offensively, however, she has what could possibly be the worst OPD attack in LOP.
Like Wonder Woman, he is a dual-grid with a teammate avoid. And again like her, is severely limited in offense with his AA and BV.
Like the others, Two-Face is a dual-grid, but also a max6. He has a BV like SSpider, but no teammate avoid. You could argue that he has the best offense, however, with his 6e AP (and even better offense with a homemade card a friend gave him, more on that later).
So none of these Characters are exactly top-tier, Venture-dominating frontline-wrecking badasses. However, they all have an ostensibly fantastic BQ that, in my opinion, significantly ups the ante of offensive and venture potential. So the meta-rule must have something to do with abuse, right? I mean, are these cards even more powerful than I realize? Is there a potential for abuse substantive enough to warrant such capricious limitation? Who of you, who have played for years or in tournaments, can provide an example of this card being so strong as to require rule #71?
My brother agrees with the rule, and one of the reasons has to do with the nature of the character as well as the diction of the card. In other words, Marauders can play a teammate's
special because it fits their nature, whereas Two-Face may exchange a
card for a card playable by him because it fits his.
And to segue (my English instructors would be proud), the word
card on the special as well as the phrase
must be playable seems to indicate that as long as those two criteria are met, any such card may be exchanged. I'm talking, of course, about teamworks! Therein lay the compromise between the three characters with rule-restricted BQs and those with diction-restricted BQs. In other words, Marauders can exchange for any of their three teammate's specials, and only specials, while Two-Face can only exchange for his specials but also any card playable by him.
Some final thoughts:
- Is it legal to use BQs (character-specific or Any Character) to exchange for Teamworks, Allies, Double Shots?
- If so, is it a good enough compromise?
- Do you ignore meta-rule 71 when you play?
Thanks guys!
PS
My brother's friend is working on an expansion of sorts for DC (he's our resident Batman/Superman expert) and he came up with a fantastic card for Two-Face: Acts as a level 4e/s attack, must be blocked twice. If successful, acts as a level 8e/s hit.[/list]
Yes, I agree that those BQ cards royally got the shaft. For my house rules - I play them as written. They say ANY card in the dead pile, therefore it may be ANY card. Zero Restrictions. It gives three characters a nice boost.
Officially, of course, that is not the case. No any-heroes, activators, or any special not usable by said character.
However, it IS legal to draw anything else (teamworks, doubleshots, artifacts etc) that is usable by the character, so long as any additional requirements can be met. (IE: for a TW you must be able to follow it up with a PC, same with doubleshots)
-BBH
I would definitely agree with BBH that they got the short end on this meta. I recently built a team with SS and a team with WW but after reading the Meta I feel a little different about one of the two teams now.....
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1379.png)
but what about that?
Quote from: steve2275 on March 23, 2012, 07:30:47 AM
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1379.png)
but what about that?
I stand corrected. ;)
I love the ones that specifically say "not playable by"
its good for my cap taskmaster deck
Quote from: steve2275 on March 23, 2012, 07:40:01 AM
its good for my cap taskmaster deck
I always forget about Taskmaster.....b/c I don't have him :'(
Quote from: steve2275 on March 23, 2012, 07:30:47 AM
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1379.png)
but what about that?
That's just it. there are two-types of BQ Specials. Those that are restricted to playable by the character, and those restricted to non-playable by the character. They could both be better, but as it is, I feel like the differences between these two creates a bit of balance anyway.
Quote from: ncannelora on March 23, 2012, 12:59:58 PM
That's just it. there are two-types of BQ Specials. Those that are restricted to playable by the character, and those restricted to non-playable by the character. They could both be better, but as it is, I feel like the differences between these two creates a bit of balance anyway.
this is true - Steve2275 and I just had a back and forth on that this morning. As much as OP could have improved I do think they did a really good job with what they had out there - especially compared to some other comics' games.
can a bq special be used to retrieve a special after it was used from a battlesite?
Do you discard battlesite specials to the Dead Pile after they are no long in play?
Quote from: Demacus on April 09, 2012, 06:25:17 AM
Do you discard battlesite specials to the Dead Pile after they are no long in play?
arg
stupid me
Officially, spent battlesite specials go into the defeated characters pile, activators go into the dead pile.
Quote from: QNAActivator cards cannot be placed. Specials from the battlesite are put into the defeated characters pile after they are used and activators are put into the dead pile. If a battlesite is KO'd, then it too would be placed into the defeated characters pile.
The question relating to BQ is answered above, which is no. The specials are not in the dead pile so it cannot come back.
Yea, I'm on the play them as written side of the fence. Any card should mean any card. I also fail to see why they can't be played defensively if you have an avoid in the Dead Pile.
Wonder Woman in particular gets royally screwed under official rules. She only has five specials, one is the BQ itself so we're down to four. Two are defensive so you can't choose them. That leaves a pair of OPDs that are retrievable. That the only two specials she can get are OPD is another negative since there's a good chance you could get the BQ before the other two come up; but then on top of it they are not even good OPDS as those specials include Amazon Might, which I would never play in a tournament setting (or even most casual ones for that matter) and Lasso of Truth, which I'm only tempted to include in casual play because it's her signature comic power--but regardless a reveal special certainly isn't worth getting twice.
So she starts with an as written Special that is one of the best effects in the game with tons of flexibility and by the time the rule whittles it down she has a card that in ideal circumastances is going to give her one additional teamwork, which I would say is far from being "blessed by the gods" of overpower.
Quote from: The Dude on April 14, 2012, 07:16:45 PM
Yea, I'm on the play them as written side of the fence. Any card should mean any card. I also fail to see why they can't be played defensively if you have an avoid in the Dead Pile.
Wonder Woman in particular gets royally screwed under official rules. She only has five specials, one is the BQ itself so we're down to four. Two are defensive so you can't choose them. That leaves a pair of OPDs that are retrievable. That the only two specials she can get are OPD is another negative since there's a good chance you could get the BQ before the other two come up; but then on top of it they are not even good OPDS as those specials include Amazon Might, which I would never play in a tournament setting (or even most casual ones for that matter) and Lasso of Truth, which I'm only tempted to include in casual play because it's her signature comic power--but regardless a reveal special certainly isn't worth getting twice.
So she starts with an as written Special that is one of the best effects in the game with tons of flexibility and by the time the rule whittles it down she has a card that in ideal circumastances is going to give her one additional teamwork, which I would say is far from being "blessed by the gods" of overpower.
I disagree about Amazon Might - it's most certainly a worthy card. In the very least, it's not useless at all. But that's not the debate here...
I tend to agree with the play as written side of things... though I do lean in favour on disallowing the retrieval of Any Heroes and Activators. Primarily because it might be a little too broken. Especially in retrieving the big ones, like DoW or Leech. Immensely frustrating for players.
But there is no reason at all that said BQ cards shouldn't be able to retrieve anything else. You can retrieve aspects, that's not barred - not that there would be many options for Wonder Woman. A-next or Excelsior is about it. But calling teammates specials shouldn't be out of the question. Hell Marauders can already do it, and they were broken long ago. It would go a long way to Giving Wonder Woman, Scarlet Spider, and Two-Face a much more playable special.
It's funny how the Marauder's BQ which by virtue of it's text is technically 'limited' offers more options than Wonder Woman's BQ which has an excessive limitation not indicated by the text.
-BBH
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1513.png)
HERE COMES THE CAVALRY! {R} Ghost Rider & Brood
Draw 3 additional cards. All duplicates must still be discarded
could be an 12(if placed) (11 from hand) to block
Okaaay, but that seems like a lot of effort to go thru just to land a 5. Not to mention since both cards are OPD there's a 50-percent chance the Event is going to come up first and now I'm stuck with a bad card; or Amazon Might comes up first and I have to place a bad card and hold it for possibly 2 or 3 battles waiting for the event. Still not sold on it.
I don't think I'd hate the card as much if it wasn't a OPD. If it was like those 3's that populated Classic (Havok, Scorpion, Shiar, Mordo all have it) then I'd be like not the best card but for a non-opd it may have occassional use (although I think those 3's are better than this one). But for Wonder Woman it's her only numeric attack, which is already pretty shoddy to begin with and then on top of it considered a OPD, which just makes me go WTF.
Let's be realistic. In most situations the best you can hope for is a 9 if you place it and then keep all 8 the next battle. But this involves a) placing a bad card thus losing card advantage in the battle you draw it for a hopefully better attack next battle; and b) assuming you will keep all 8 cards which since this is a OPD half the time it will come up late, which means you may have a dead teammate (or two) plus the usual chance duplicating so you'll need a lot of luck even to pull it off.
But le'ts say you do pull the ideal hand for this card: well it's only a 9 if I play it may on my first attack. If I wait it shrinks. While on my first attack my opponent is at full strength so if he has even a half-way decent deck he probably has either a Spawn avoid or Negate or an Activator (and probably two of those three on his first turn) that can easily avoid it. So basically this card under ideal circumstances is a decoy to draw out a high level block for something better. Now throw in Wonder Woman has a great grid with teammate defense and she may will be a high priority target for my opponent; do I really want to waste a unique-to-her spot in my deck for a decoy card?
Hell since to make Amazon Might a 9 I have to give up card advantage in the battle I draw it (by placing it for a future battle), Why don't I just use the Multi-5 Powercard with a Training card instead? I mean If I really want to throw a 9 that turns into a 5 that seems like a much safer way to go since: 1- all four members of my team can play it instead of just one, 2 - I can wait until my second or third turn to play it and it doesn't diminish in attack value, and 3 - If it goes through it's in a 4 skill multi instead of a two skill one.
So yea that's my thoughts on Amazon Might, it's inferior to a training card. To call it a OPD is just adding insult to injury since in the very same set there were several characters given true half-multi 9's (GL, Atom, Bane) so why are we wasting Wonder Woman's time with this half-assed version?
agreed 100%
stupid card
Quote from: steve2275 on April 15, 2012, 03:02:47 AM
HERE COMES THE CAVALRY! {R} Ghost Rider & Brood
Draw 3 additional cards. All duplicates must still be discarded
could be an 12(if placed) (11 from hand) to block
That's a little excessive to max out this card. It could work, but isn't likely to and it's not worth that level of effort. While I argue that it's a good card, it's certainly not one you plan a deck around ;)
I don't believe in the philosophy that a card is worthless simply because it's not as good as some other cards. There are plenty of cards that don't necessarily measure up to similar counterparts... it doesn't make them worthless. From a tactical perspective it's almost always going to serve you well. It will only fail you when you try and maximize the bonus - but that's a trap. Treat the card as a fire and forget and move on.
Will it win you any games outright? Not at all. But to say it's not worth including in a deck is mind boggling. It's a handy tool in the toolbox. It's a multi-hit offsuit. Always an advantage. Your opponent will block this card. You fire it right off the top of the round, odds are it will be a 5 or 6 to block on average, maybe higher if you haven't placed much, and that's not bad. Great for sussing out your opponent's defense. If he takes the hit, you're up 5 points and he's taken a hit that could haunt him come time to spectrum KO. If he defends, you flush out one of his cards, and can often measure his ability to defend by that first action. That's a win-win scenario in a game where the strategy isn't just in hitting, but gauging what hits your opponent does or doesn't take.
Sure, it's not a 9 multi. Big deal. Hulk's 'Enraged' isn't Thing's 'Clobberin' time'... that doesn't make it any less useful. And to use the bonus on Enraged, you have to take a few hits, that can be a bit of a risk.
I agree with you on the OPD front. Amazon Might as a non-OPD would have been better served not being an OPD. Another edge for WW. And I have no doubt that had that card been designed post-IQ it would have been. At the time, multi-suit attacks were usually level 4, or they were OPD. JLA was a pre-IQ set, and if you look at it in that context, a card like Amazon might would have been very hard to block. So that was probably a consideration when designing the card.
The other thing I like about it - flaws and all - is that it's unique. It would have been very easy for them to come up with yet another dual 9, or something along those lines. But at least someone was thinking outside the box on that one.
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on April 16, 2012, 03:33:27 PM
I agree with you on the OPD front. Amazon Might as a non-OPD would have been better served not being an OPD. Another edge for WW. And I have no doubt that had that card been designed post-IQ it would have been. At the time, multi-suit attacks were usually level 4, or they were OPD. JLA was a pre-IQ set, and if you look at it in that context, a card like Amazon might would have been very hard to block. So that was probably a consideration when designing the card.
-BBH
The card WAS released Post-I.Q. as JLA came out between I.Q. and Monumental. It might have been designed Pre-I.Q., but it was released Post-I.Q.
Quote from: Demacus on April 17, 2012, 06:44:54 PM
Quote from: BigBadHarve on April 16, 2012, 03:33:27 PM
I agree with you on the OPD front. Amazon Might as a non-OPD would have been better served not being an OPD. Another edge for WW. And I have no doubt that had that card been designed post-IQ it would have been. At the time, multi-suit attacks were usually level 4, or they were OPD. JLA was a pre-IQ set, and if you look at it in that context, a card like Amazon might would have been very hard to block. So that was probably a consideration when designing the card.
-BBH
The card WAS released Post-I.Q. as JLA came out between I.Q. and Monumental. It might have been designed Pre-I.Q., but it was released Post-I.Q.
Sorry, you're right - I was thinking post-Monumental.
-BBH
This is funny, I was currently trying to trade for blessed by the God's because it seemed so power i.e. play Zealot's warrior soul twice...dammit...
The Taskmaster special only retrieves SPECIAL cards. Still better than the other BQ's that fetch teamworks though.
i was looking at the BQs after the image inducer question about discards, and retrieving an event from the dead pile
if it's a character-specific BQ, it doesn't work because i assume an event is not playbable by a character, but by the player
if it's a tm BQ, it doesn't work because they are all restricted to grabbing a special card
I think the event goes to the defeated characters pile, so it's not retrievable with a BQ. I think.
they usually do, but with a card like image inducer, or a discard top 5 from draw pile to dead, they can end up there
moot anyways, unless i'm wrong about events being playable by a character
Even if you could retrieve it from the dead pile with a BQ, wouldn't you be wasting the BQ? Events happen before the battle takes place... draw phase, I think?
Events only take place immediately after the draw phase. If you drew one up during battle, say with a Draw 3, it is unusable.