OverPower began as a game called Power Players that was really a very different game to the one we came to know and like. I'll post the rules eventually but I thought I'd post a few cards first. Some of you may have seen the Power Players hero card that was shown in the first Monthly Venture (March 1996). Again, I'll post the info from that here when I dig it out.
Power Players came as a complete 2 person game with two different decks, in printed card boxes, complete with a rules booklet.
In addition to Power Players there were at least two other draft versions of OverPower printed for trial and demo puproses. I obtained these cards from a variety of different graphic designers who worked on the game way back when I was mainly collecting OverPower art but picked them up because I thought they were interesting. Neither of these card collections came with rules. One is clearly very close to the finished OverPower I'll call it pre-OP and it was printed up on cardstock with the OP card backs but with no art on any of the cards. The other is much more similar to Power Players. Since I believe it came after Power Players (PP) I'll call it PP2. This PP2 set, like PP, used some recycled art. I recognize some of it from various Marvel trading card sets. PP2 is on card stock but is not printed with the card backs.
As Richie pointed out to me the PP game really does have closer connections to an rpg than a ccg. Characters can leap onto objects and objects can be hurled. Objects had a MUCH bigger role in the game. Witness the evolution of the humble tree from Power Players (top left) through two drafts to the useless piece of lumber we all learned to ignore.
(http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~latto/xtree.jpg)
Hero cards went through a similar simplification. Here are the 4 versions of Punisher I have.
(http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~latto/xpunisher.jpg)
Note the PP card has 11 stats and a note that the gun is a ranged weapon. Not only is combat separated from movement but attack and defense values are different so Punisher can use a level 6 weapon strike card to attack but not to defend.
Power cards at least look similar although notice the rather redundant terminology of 'weapon strike' and 'weapon block' on the same card. The color coding (red strike, blue block) matches the stats on the hero card. The bottom right card here is of course the first OP promo card. The decision to remove the lettering from the power cards was obviously taken pretty late.
(http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~latto/x6power.jpg)
Finally the specials also look familiar although there was a downgrading of some of the specials between pre-OP and the actual release. Old timers may remember the game guides that came with intriguing pictures of level 5 AA and AE cards.
(http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~latto/xspidey.jpg)
Obviously this was still a bone of contention when the game was released. Anyone else remember Steve Domzalski altering and initialling level 4 AA cards to make them level 5? I think was San Diego in 1996 but I bet he did it other places.
(http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~latto/thing5.jpg)
I don't think PP and PP2 contained Teamwork cards. First ones I have are in the pre-OP set and are called triple shots. But the few I have are NOT completely overpowered (pun intended) like the example depicted in the game guide and shown below.
(http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~latto/gamegtriple.jpg)
All four cards below are from pre-OP. The game back is the same but without the copyright.
(http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/~latto/xaatw.jpg)
Okay. Power Players rules to follow at some point. I think that one of the first magazine articles on OverPower (maybe the obscure Ventura magazine that the Fighting 6 promo came in?) had an article that covered a bit of the game design. Does anyone have a copy of this handy? I'm trying to track down the story I read somewhere about who introduced the venturing element into the game (making it a winner in my book). This element was not in Power Players and my memory was that the suggestion came from some exec (presumably a poker player) rather than a game designer.
To be continued...
I think a new meme in our playgroup is going to be "Tree - Brute Force: 6." That card detailing all these specific things about the tree (limit 4 heroes getting on top of a tree at a time!) is really amazing.
Does anyone remember Battle Books? They were kinda like choose your own adventure comic books, where each person needed one and you had a fight against each other by flipping to different pages. I'm pretty sure they came out way after Overpower, and some of the assets in them look like they were recycled from some of these cards. For example:
(http://i.imgur.com/CtHkm.png)
I'm almost positive those stats/fonts are used on the characters stat cards for Battle Books...I have a promo Battle Book somewhere, I'll have to find it and compare.
(http://i.imgur.com/47DDO.png)
This looks so modern compared to the cards we ended up with. There's something about the font that makes it look like it's from 1998 instead of 1995. I'm really glad they didn't go with this template though, it makes the card look like a trading card with the game mechanics as an afterthought (though it may be the recycled art throwing me off). That poor Punisher hero card also looks like there was barely any room on the card to squeeze in a picture. That was probably just placeholder formatting though?
Seeing how complex the original Power Players is sort of makes you wonder what spurred them to create a Marvel CCG in the first place. Based on all these intricate interactions with ranged distance and weapons and such, it seems like the game would have been pitched to the higher ups as something that would appeal to pretty hardcore/niche gamers. Obviously it was made more casual friendly before being released; but the fact that it began as something so dense in early design stages probably indicates that they weren't making the game just as a quick cash in on the burgeoning CCG market.
Quote from: JohnLAnyone else remember Steve Domzalski altering and initialling level 4 AA cards to make them level 5? I think was San Diego in 1996 but I bet he did it other places.
Haha, the best part about this is someone on the newsgroups arguing that they should have been tournament legal.
Quote from: October 1995In the same vein, I competed in San Diego's Overpower Tournament
and made it to the final 16 players. After I lost that match, two of the
artists came up to me and signed a few of my cards, even altering two of them
to make them one point of damage stronger (Doom and Carnage Special Cards
bumped up from attacks of 4 to attacks of 5). Everyone here knows I play
with them when playing those characters and no one has yet to complain
except Al. He does not accept that just because other card games allow
for signatures and alterations that Overpower should. This frustrates me
because I consider those cards a sort of prize for getting as far as I
did given me by the Fleer reps themselves. Sure, there's no ruling on
such things, but should I have to give them up just because Al refuses to
accept current CCG policies. If Fleer ever writes it down somewhere to
make it official, he'd be fine with it, but using Magic as a precedent-
setter doesn't fly. What do you guys think?
Thanks for scanning all this, I've really never seen it ever discussed on the internet. A piece of history has been saved! Looking forward to seeing how intricate the rules are for Power Players.
Wow! this is amazing, I haven't seen anything like this or knew about anything like this being planned before overpower went into development. Thanks so much for sharing this with us John!
This was a fantastic read! I never knew about the history of the game and how fascinating it would be. Thanks so much for taking the time to go through it with us. Can't wait to read more.
Thanks for the feedback. As long as someone enjoys it I'll post more stuff. Here's a puzzler for you. Check out the 4 hero/character cards above. Notice that the Power Players and PP2 have a value for the number of hits to KO. This is obviously gone by the time of the OP cards, or was it? Has anyone ever seen any pictures of hero cards like this:
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/spidermanko.jpg)
This is from an official OverPower promotional product (a picture only, not a card). What I mean is that it may be photoshopped but not by me! Other cards pictured look a lot like regular OP cards except they all have the style of the Fighting 6 promo (ie the word Energy, Fighting or Strength plus the character name.
This seems to suggest that this idea of having hits to ko persisted really late in the development process.
Has anyone ever seen any other hero cards like this? Anyone ever seen an actual card like this? I was always surprised that different characters didn't have different values to ko. It would have made a lot of sense. I rather like the little bell icon....
I've never seen that in any kind of advertisement, not even in an EARLY advertisement from an Archie comic I have. Maybe that official promotional image was from some kind of fact sheet that they sent to distributors? As far as the mechanic goes, it actually makes perfect sense now that I think about it. It would really open up design balance if each character required a different total for cummulative KO instead of a flat 20...though I guess inherent abilities (in theory) could have reflected this. Some people had inherent abilities with restrictions on how you could KO them, but it wasn't really heavily explored.
It does make you wonder where the intellect icon would have gone though. It's kind of surprising that they didn't deem an intellect type stat necessary at some point during the original development. I'm guessing the reason it was introduced in DC is that they got to characters like the Riddler and had no idea how to assign any sizable stats, so I guess that just means none of the hero cards in the original set brought that problem up.
I think that bell icon is quite cute too
This is crazy-cool! I'm pretty speachless!
I was going to post the PowerPlayers rules but I got distracted by sorting out the credits. Rules are still to come.
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ppback.jpg)
According to both Issue #1 of the Monthly Venture and the Board Game Geek website;
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2127/overpower (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2127/overpower)
the designers of the original OverPower game mechanic were Michael and Theodore Stern. The Venture says 'both active in the gaming field for over nine years.' Board game geek has Michael associated with the design of 3 other games (not ccg's). I assume that they delivered the Power Players game as a fairly complete entity. I do not know if they were involved in the game after that.
The initial rulebook does not contain any credits but later rulebooks do. The DC rulebook credits the Stern's with 'Initial OverPower game design'. Much of the final OverPower game design is due to Steve Domzalski and Ron Perrazza (Ron was also art director). In the DC rulebook they are credited with 'Additional Game Design and Development'.
By the time the Monumental rulebook came out Game Design was solely credited to Ron and Steve.
Just to confuse matters the Image rulebook (yes the Japanese one, it has the credits in English) lists 6 people under 'Initial Game Design' plus Steve and Ron under 'Additional Game Design and Development' again. The six listed are Ron, Steve, the Stern brothers plus William Jemas and Steve Seckar. William Jemas was president of Fleer Entertainment Group in 1993 and went on to become vice president of Marvel in its turbulent bankruptcy days, I don't know what position Steve Seckar had. I'm guessing it was one of these two guys we have to thank for the venturing aspect of the game.
Power Players rules with some more card pictures for entertainment. Sorry for using photographs rather than scans. I don't currently have access to a scanner so it's much more convenient for me to do it this way. I think the resolution should be good enough to read without too much eye strain.
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/pphero2.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/pp1.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/pp2.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ss3.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ss4.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ss5.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ss6.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ss7.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ppenv2.jpg)
Since the Environment cards play such a big role I thought I'd post some more. The ones above seem okay. You can't jump on or into an empty bottle. Four people on a tree and one in a phone booth.
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ppenv1.jpg)
But only four in a bus? And infinite people in a museum? Cool. You can hurl the bus but you can't hurl the museum. Oh and you can't get into the mailbox but you can get on it. I think. Maybe I should read the rules...
Comments welcome but don't expect me to know the answers to any rules questions! We haven't even tried playing this game, I suspect there are a lot of gaps in the rules.
Enjoy, John
All of this is really amazing, John. Thanks for the rules. I've been so busy at work I cant type out a long response at the moment, ill be able to read them a little more in-depth later, and post a better response. Just wanted to say all of this new information is greatly appreciated. Keep it coming.
Hm, well if it was Steve Seckar who introduced venturing, then huzzah to him. Speaking of boardgamegeek, I see Matt Fell posting on there from time to time! He still goes by Grim Jester.
So after reading through the rules to Power Players, here's a bit of an easy reference chart
List of mechanics that were kept
- Drawing 8 each turn
- Reshuffling your deck if it runs out (though it doesn't specify that only powercards get reshuffled)
- Characters having primary skill types (with Hand to Hand = Fighting, Brute Force = Strength, Energy = Energy, and Weapons falling to the wayside...this is probably crazy speculation but maybe since hero cards were the most prominent they didn't want to put "WEAPONS" on them in part of their obvious push to make the game more family friendly?)
- Power cards work mostly the same and require you to have a high enough stat to use them (though they were only 2-8 instead of 1-8)
- Specials seem identical
- Hits stacking up as a sort of permanent record, and you can only attack active chars (not the reserve or "unactivated" facedown cards)
- Hard and fast rule of only being able to play one defensive action during opponent's one and only attack (no "stack" or "chain" allowing you to continually do things in response to other things)
- Lose when all characters are KO'ed, no floating life total or losing when your deck runs out or anything like that
List of things that evolved into/potentially influenced the retail release
- Putting character cards into your deck instead of starting in play ---> activators from battlesite
- Locations card that start in play
- Hero cards that start in play but have no immediate use (this is a pretty huge difference though - it seems like choosing when to use up an action to activate a facedown character has far more strategic implications than simply having a character sit unused until your opponent KOs somebody)
- Objects (with some interesting mechanics and 1000 rules) ---> universe cards (too simple for their own good)
- Destroying objects/locations (still not entirely clear on this) ---> similar to attacking battlesites
- Character dies after taking hits total to his Toughness/Hit points ---> "hits to KO" with the little bell icon in previous post ---> flat 20 points cummulative KO
Cut stuff with no real analogous leftovers in the final version
- Movement (fly/jump/climb)
- Positioning (ranged attacks, which I'm not sure how ranged attacks differentiate from regular attacks in terms of defending vs. them)
- Little implied benefits to being high in a primary skill stat (energy blasts are always ranged, characters with high brute force can hurl larger objects, etc).
QuoteYou can't jump on or into an empty bottle.
Hahahahahahahaha!
Some musings...I wonder how much playtesting was done to determine that powercards should go up to 8. It seems like it worked out well in the long run, but I bet it was an arbitrary cutoff. All of the cut stuff looks very tactical, like something you would expect from a war game using miniatures. The biggest loser in the transition to the final game is obviously basic universe cards. They went from being so important that they started the game in play with tons of complex rules, to "+3 lol." They could have found some kind of compromise between too involved and too simple...for example
Basic universe - Car. 6 strength to use +3. If successful, defending character can't attack for remainder of battle (he's trapped under a car!)
Basic Universe - Energy Gun. 7 energy to use +1. If used for defense, return the power card you used to your hand after blocking.
Anyway, all of those rules are a lot to digest so I'll have to think about them some more before coming up with any more thoughts.
Quote from: Onslaught on February 05, 2011, 10:08:55 PM
- Destroying objects/locations (still not entirely clear on this) ---> similar to attacking battlesites
Nice summary, thanks. The issue of destroying objects is clarified a bit in the next version (the one I called PP2). If you look at the set of 'Tree' cards I posted you'll notice that the PP2 version says '*If tree is hurled twice it is considered destroyed'.
I don't think this issue of destroying objects by hurling is covered in the PP rules. However this adds text to an already wordy card and, presumably, requires some way of keeping track of how many times something has been hurled. So objects can be destroyed by hitting them directly (and exceeding their defense value) in order to get at a character on top of a museum say OR by hurling them a set number of times which will destroy them (once for a bottle, twice for a bus).
All the object cards I have from the PP2 set are like this but the instruction varies. The one that cracks me up is 'Old Tire' - *Tire cannot be destroyed by hurling.
Hulk hurl tire.
(Comedy bouncing noise)
Argg Hulk angry at Tire, Hulk hurl Tire
(Comedy bouncing noise)
etc etcI suppose Hulk can just smash the tire with an attack but that wouldn't be funny.
Quote from: JohnL on February 06, 2011, 01:48:02 AM
So objects can be destroyed by hitting them directly (and exceeding their defense value) in order to get at a character on top of a museum say OR by hurling them a set number of times which will destroy them (once for a bottle, twice for a bus).
Ok, this makes more sense now.
QuoteAll the object cards I have from the PP2 set are like this but the instruction varies. The one that cracks me up is 'Old Tire' - *Tire cannot be destroyed by hurling.
Hulk hurl tire.
(Comedy bouncing noise)
Argg Hulk angry at Tire, Hulk hurl Tire
(Comedy bouncing noise)
etc etc
I suppose Hulk can just smash the tire with an attack but that wouldn't be funny.
These object cards are really just too amusing. I'm still chortling every time I think about "Museum Capacity: Infinity."
Quote from: JohnL on February 05, 2011, 02:54:19 AM
Thanks for the feedback. As long as someone enjoys it I'll post more stuff. Here's a puzzler for you. Check out the 4 hero/character cards above. Notice that the Power Players and PP2 have a value for the number of hits to KO. This is obviously gone by the time of the OP cards, or was it? Has anyone ever seen any pictures of hero cards like this:
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/spidermanko.jpg)
This is from an official OverPower promotional product (a picture only, not a card). What I mean is that it may be photoshopped but not by me! Other cards pictured look a lot like regular OP cards except they all have the style of the Fighting 6 promo (ie the word Energy, Fighting or Strength plus the character name.
This seems to suggest that this idea of having hits to ko persisted really late in the development process.
Has anyone ever seen any other hero cards like this? Anyone ever seen an actual card like this? I was always surprised that different characters didn't have different values to ko. It would have made a lot of sense. I rather like the little bell icon....
This is the first time I have ever seen that icon on an overpower hero card, amazing. Do you think that this means that originally there was only going to be cumulative ko's? It is a little bit surprising that they scrapped this idea, as I also think it would of been a good idea for different hero's to have different hits to ko. and yes, the little ball icon would be a nice little aesthetic change to the icons we are currently used to seeing while playing overpower ;).
Quote from: Onslaught on February 05, 2011, 04:30:54 AM
It does make you wonder where the intellect icon would have gone though. It's kind of surprising that they didn't deem an intellect type stat necessary at some point during the original development. I'm guessing the reason it was introduced in DC is that they got to characters like the Riddler and had no idea how to assign any sizable stats, so I guess that just means none of the hero cards in the original set brought that problem up.
I think that bell icon is quite cute too
I assume the icons would of been made significantly smaller, I think the intellect icon would of fit with the hits to ko icon still being there. It would make the hero cards look a little crammed and "busy" though, definetly. I think a new player trying to get started in the game later in its lifespan would of been alot more intimidated with 5 icons on the hero cards, than just the 4 we ended up with at the end.
More observations to come later tonight after I take the significant other out to dinner... sorry to cut this one short.
Quote from: JohnL on February 05, 2011, 08:22:38 PM
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/pphero2.jpg)
Comments welcome but don't expect me to know the answers to any rules questions! We haven't even tried playing this game, I suspect there are a lot of gaps in the rules.
Enjoy, John
My first thought, while looking at the characters cards is that I am wondering why Iron Man can fly for defense, but not to attack. I guess the ranged attack rules were incomplete at this time, as they seem pretty vague in the rule book. I REALLY like the idea of putting your character cards face down while setting up the game, and you and your opponent simultaneously flipping them over at the same time. I can imagine sitting down in front of your opponent, while wondering which characters they are playing, followed by the excitement of flipping your hero card over to reveal it to your opponent at the same time that he does. And since you are not required to have all of your characters flipped over and into play at one time, your always wondering who that next character your opponent will flip will be, or what character your opponent just placed from his hand face down is.
Always having 8 cards in your hand is also really interesting, especially with the ability to pass your turn and discard any number of cards you want, and then re-draw from your draw pile to get back to 8 cards at the end of your turn. But I guess you would only need to do this when your hand was really bad, since you can waste your turn pretty easily by just jumping/flying onto an object.
As for the location cards, I like the idea of these also, and think it might even be superior to the locations that were used later in overpower. Being able to jump onto an object or hurl it sounds awesome. The Tree seems really good, but having 4 of your characters in one tree seems like alot, since you can only have a maximum of 6 hero's at one time. I guess it must be a really big tree if it takes 6 strength to hurl it. However, when compared to an Empty Bottle, a tree might actually have that much greater effect in a fight of super-hero's. I am not even really sure why you would use the Empty Bottle in a deck, but I assume you could always hurl it at someone since you cant jump into it, even if it breaks the first time you throw it. Makes you wonder if they were thinking of an "Empty Titanium Bottle" that you could throw a few more times before it breaks. ;)
If i understand correct, characters are ko'd by the number of hits (cards) on them, and not the total of the actual power level of each card combined. (So 3 level 2 cards hitting Daredevil ko's him just the same as 3 level 8 cards). If i am understanding the rules correctly, it looks like the different power levels of attack/defense/maneuver cards are just for being able to play that specific card. If that is correct, I like the idea that Overpower used with its cumulative ko system. It would be frustrating to have a character die with a total of 10 on him split between 4 cards, when you have a total of 20 on one of his characters split between 3 cards, and his character is still alive (assuming both characters had the same toughness rating of 4).
I do notice a lot of similarities between these rules and the rules that come out in the released version of Overpower. It's pretty clear that Overpower was based on a lot of what it seems like the developers were trying to do with Power Players.
On a side note, I also notice in the rulebook most of the time it refers to the player as "he", but in the "perfoming actions" section it always refers to the player as "she". ???. Maybe this has something to with the creation of the overpower card "Femme Fatale".... so.... John, can you please remind me what happens when you play that card on Brood or a character that is not human? Ha! just kidding of course! ;)
Quote from: Onslaught on February 06, 2011, 04:40:41 PM
These object cards are really just too amusing. I'm still chortling every time I think about "Museum Capacity: Infinity."
Definetly is VERY amusing to think about the certain situations that could come up. I dont know why they didnt just put museum capacity at 6, since that is the maximum number of characers allowed in your deck. I could see 6 people fitting into a museum more comfortably than I picture 4 Sentinel's fitting into a City Bus. Haha. :P
JohnL, Thank you so much for posting these card pictures and the rules to this game. I had no idea they even existed before you posted them here. They definitely get the imagination going. By the way, I'll shoot you an e-mail soon and let you know what I have been up to lately. Hope to hear back from you soon.
::hurls a tire at your character for the 20th turn in a row:: ;D
I snapped a few more images at the weekend but didn't have time to post them. Here are some more objects - these are all from what I called PP2.
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/pp2objects.jpg)
Notice that in both PP and PP2 the objects seem to be classified by location - first 'Environment Manhattan' and then 'Arena Manhattan'. I assume the plan was to have different environments introduce new objects. It would seem sensible that both players would need to fight in the same location though so I wonder how this was to be decided? Maybe I'm overthinking this (ya think? the rules to a game that was never produced and was the precursor to a game that ceased production over a decade ago...)
Here's a couple of scans of cards from what I called pre-Op. These were printed up on cardstock with the OP backs but since they have very little art (I was wrong before - some of the hero cards do have art) and they are very close to the final OP set I'm assuming this was for a final bout of playtesting. There are several cards that got substantially weakened.
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/sbretoothpreop.jpg)
I wonder whether Sabretooth's 'Wildcat attack' was a OPD in this version? Or maybe this bout of playtesting was also to determine what needed to be OPD?
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/wolverinepreop.jpg)
Wolverine's cards illustrate what we already knew (from somewhere, I need to remember where) that the original OP set had ALL of the heroes from both Op and PS and had 6 specials for them - that would have been a pretty big set.
I really like that dual-icon 7 for Sabretooth! Dang!
Quote from: JohnL on February 09, 2011, 04:54:40 PM
Maybe I'm overthinking this (ya think? the rules to a game that was never produced and was the precursor to a game that ceased production over a decade ago...)
Well I don't know if this is any consolation, but I intend to actually try a small playthrough of Power Players using the provided scans. I have way too much free time...
QuoteHere's a couple of scans of cards from what I called pre-Op.
You really have to wonder what happened during playtesting that led them to believe "attack after opponent has conceded" needed to be restricted to one per deck. Also, that Sabretooth dual 7 is really cool. That idea wouldn't show up again until IQ with the level 4 attacks, like Storm's 4 strength/intellect. Have you ever seen an 8 multi special from those pre-OP cards? Since Sabretooth's dual 7 has the icons spread out vertically, I was just curious if they still used a horizontal stack for the specials with 3 icons.
Quote*If the revolver is hurled once it is considered destroyed
Haha
Supremely cool stuff here, as always.
Huh, I hadn't noticed that before but there are NO multi-power icons on any of the cards before the actual OP release. The PP cards and PP2 cards don't have icons on the specials and I haven't seen any multipower cards in the power cards.
The pre-OP cards power I have do have icons but although I have a fairly complete set of power cards - again no multi-power. Of the specials Sabretooth's is the only multi-power but I don't have copies of any specials that later became multi-power.
The earliest appearance of a multipower is in the 'Pre-release edition' of the Clobberin' Time Game Guide (was this the one that came with the Fighting 6 promo?) There's a specific mention of a level 3 MultiPower card duplicating a level 3 Fighting power card and a picture of both cards. I mention the pre-release version because this is the one that depicts a level 5 Temper Tantrum for the Thing, the super-powered triple shot, and the power cards still have the words 'Energy', 'Fighting' or 'Strength' on them (but not the hero name like the Wolverine promo 6.
I didn't mean to be mysterious when I posted the Hero cards with the KO bell icon. The scan was from the die-cut file folders that Fleer used to send out retailer promotional material in. They had several (I have an original OP one and one with a Powersurge logo on the cover) and you used to be able to pick them up on ebay pretty often. I think Gary Martin even listed them on his big 'All things OP list'. Anyway, these folders all have the same inside with the hulks hands holding a bunch of cards. None of the specials have text or icons, the power cards all have the words 'Energy', 'Fighting' or 'Strength' on them (but not the hero name), the hero cards all have missing stats plus the extra bell icon and the single Universe card is just a little bit funky
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/lamppost.jpg)
(That's the tip of the Hulk's thumb holding the card)
If you are really serious about playtesting PP I'll post the complete deck lists when I can find them. The two demo decks were different.
The Mysterious Case of Pre-OP Multipowers...I'd like to imagine that they would also be horizontally spread out like that Sabretooth 7, which would look pretty weird.
For the life of me I can't seem to remember where the 6 fighting promo card came from. It seems probable that it came in the game guide though.
And yeah, I will definitely test power players out. I was just going to try to piece it together from what you already posted (like using multiples of the same hero card and pulling out level 2 through 8 powercards and stuff), but if you did type up the demo decks I would totally use them!
This is some wild stuff.
I definitely remember the "Hits to KO" icon from the promotional/early stuff. It might have been visible in that Jubilee-narrated "how to play" guide, but I most likely saw it from the pre-order catalog I used, Entertainment This Month (anyone remember that?). I recall getting the game and opening the starter deck thinking, "Huh, they got rid of the Hits to KO idea." Big mistake, I think. Would have created a lot more room for strategy if you could build a team however you want (not necessarily 4 characters) as long as you were under a "Hits to KO cap."
I am also willing to playtest PP. Should be some very good fun to see the different situations we could come up with!
Okay. PowerPlayers Deck 1.
6 Hero cards with 2 specials each
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/pphero1.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/pphero2.jpg)
IronMan w/ Radar - automatically avoid one ranged attack. Heat seeking missile - acts as a level 8 weapon attack.
Punisher w/ Machine Gun - allows a single weapon attack to be applied twice - victim must make two successful defenses or be hit. Smoke Screen - avoid any one ranged attack.
DareDevil w/ Hypersenses - avoid any one attack. Sense Weakness - opponent must show highest defensive card.
SpiderMan w/ Swinging kick - acts as a level 7 hand-to-hand attack. Spider Sense - ignore any one attack.
Captain America w/ Super Soldier - level 7 Hand to hand attack. Shield Teammate - Level 7 Weapon defense.
Hulk w/ Enraged - may move twice this round. Leaping Attack - May attack victim at range with a level 6 attack.
7 Environment Cards
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ppenv1.jpg)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/ppenv2.jpg)
(Stats are, in order, Brute Force, Jump/Climb, Attack Value, Defense, Capacity)
City Bus: 7,3,8,7,4
Museum: -,6,-,-,infinity
Mailbox 4,1,5,5,-
PhoneBooth 4,3,5,3,1
Tree 6,4,7,6,4
Empty Bottle 1,-,2,1,-
Old Tire 2,-,3,2,-
35 Power cards in 6 types. In all cases offensive power is the same as defensive power
Hand to Hand: 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3
Weapon: 7, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3
Energy: 7, 7, 5, 5
Brute Force: 8, 8, 7, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3
Climb: 8
Jump:7, 5
Fly: 6, 6, 5
Wow, Cap and Punisher are both "tougher" than Spidey.
Oh wow, I didn't think that so many of the special cards would be analogous to what we saw in the final release. Like Iron Man having an 8 multi...or, this:
QuoteSmoke Screen - avoid any one ranged attack.
This really explains some of the weird/horrible stuff in the first set, since it looks like that card evolved into Punisher's "avoid an energy attack." A lot of long unanswered questions are being dissolved by looking at old stuff like this, haha.
Too bad Spidey didn't get to keep his level 7 AR. Hulk's stuff looks to have changed completely.
I'll get right on printing these out to be suitable proxies, and I think I can just use regular powercards (with intellect being hand to hand, and maybe DC power cards for the jump/fly stuff). Thanks for deck number one!
(http://i.imgur.com/alO5s.png)
This thread almost fell onto the second page, what a shame! It should be pinned at the top or saved into a Wiki or something, because none of this info has ever been available anywhere else.
Anyway, in the interest of testing out these game mechanics I tossed together some proxies that are a suitable size for printing. Nothing special, but they'll get the job done when glued onto some commons. I have the templates done, so now it's just a matter of punching in the numbers on all of them since they don't need to have images on them. Here are some samples, and when I finish them all I can e-mail a printable document for anyone who is interested.
(http://i.imgur.com/eyBC3.png) (http://imgur.com/eyBC3)
(http://i.imgur.com/tYaz0.png) (http://imgur.com/tYaz0)
best. event card. ever.! :D
wow, that is a good read. Steve Domzalski is a name I have not heard in some years. My brother and I spent a lot of time with him and I signed quite a few of those cards at the San Diego Comicon myself. I still have some of those Power player decks (My brother and I wrote those little rule books) and have a whole bin of those square edged play test cards in storage. As for the Environment cards and such. My brother and I really wanted to give the game the feel of a super hero battle on a NYC street. we had range, and you could indeed climb on buildings and blast from range. The idea was to have environment packs like a NYC street, or the ready room that would have different terrain things you could use and different things you could pick up and throw. The president of Fleer at the time, a man named Bill Jemas who later became the vice president of Marvel Entertainment Group did not like the complexity of range attacks and flying and climbing. His exact phrase was "I want a game you can teach to 10 year old's in 10 minutes with the strategic challenge of chess". So through many iterations with fleer we removed the mechanic and somewhat simplified the game. We added the venturing later as Bill was a big poker fan and he had seen that mechanic from a rival group of developers. He liked our game better, but liked their venturing mechanic so he bought our game and we worked in the Venture mechanic. I probobly have a copy of the magazine you reference somewhere, I think they interviewed me.....I will look and see
Theo Stern
Quote from: Theo on May 15, 2011, 11:42:59 PMwow, that is a good read...
And a good addition on your part. I was quite surprised to see an original designer had joined the forums on my daily check in!
As much as you wanted the complexity of the original design to stay in, I think big bossman had a good point in simplifying things. In the end I think you guys hit the nail on the head in terms of learning curve vs depth, but it's also great to hear about all the old ideas.
Holy crap. I can't remember the last time I was so grateful a thread existed. :o
Thanks for the info Theo. Since their names keep coming up I thought some of you might like to see the two characters that are responsible for the detailed minutia of Overpower (ie why that card is a level 4 rather than a level 5) and direction after Theo and his brother (and Bill Jemas) came up with the basic design. That would be Steve Domzalski and Ron Perraza. They were also pretty involved with the (short lived) Star Trek CCG and got to add themselves as red shirt characters.
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/rpsdtrek.jpg)
That's awesome! Thanks for posting! I seriously thought one of them was Mr. Scott at first.
Quote from: JohnL on May 25, 2011, 01:33:41 AM
They were also pretty involved with the (short lived) Star Trek CCG and got to add themselves as red shirt characters.
Ha, this reminds me of designers I know from other games who would put in little things like this (putting a daughter's birthday in the number of a card, homages to other CCGs, etc). The only Overpower one I ever did was naming some attacks in the Yu Yu Hakusho TCG after Onslaught's special cards. I can't find any besides the one called Raw Power, but I think another one was Dark Enigma. Also, a ton of the cards in the VS. system have their names lifted straight from special cards, so there are smatterings of Overpower influences in various games here and there.
(http://i.imgur.com/m1RALl.jpg)
Yea, Steve and Ron were Fleer employees. My brother Michael and I were actually hired to design the game, and sold it to Fleer. Having said that, Steve and Ron had a lot of input and while my brother and I came up with most of the mechanics and card types, Steve and Ron decided a lot of the Hero stats, all those had to be vetted by the Marvel experts :). They were great guys to work with and I had a blast doing the convention circuit with them. I would love to know where they are now.
Isn't Ron at DC Comics now?
That's what I have heard, no idea what happened to Steve
I am new to this site but Overpower & baseball are probably the only things that I still actively play or look up from my childhood. To find stuff I've never seen before is definitely a treat. Thanks for the post
Quote from: Jack on June 06, 2011, 12:48:39 PM
Isn't Ron at DC Comics now?
I believe Ron left DC to go to Comixology, and then just left (as in this week) there.
Power Players seems like an AWESOME GAME! I want to play it now!
Converted the rules to text:
Marvel Universe Power Players
Objective
Power Players is a game which simulates combat between super heroes, villains, and other characters. The object of the game is to knock all of your opponent's combatants out of the game before he does the same to yours.
Setup
To begin the game, each player chooses the three of her six character cards (heroes, villains), she wishes to begin the battle with and places them face down in front of her. She then selects three environment cards of her choosing and places them face down to the left of her characters. The remaining environment cards are set aside as they will not be needed. The three remaining characters are shuffled into the player's deck, to appear as reinforcements during the course of the game. After each player's deck has been thou thoroughly shuffled, he draws the top eight cards to form his hand. The remainder of the deck becomes the player's draw pool, and is placed to the right of the characters (see diagram).
Next, each player flips over her environment cards, leaving them face up. The players then select one character out of three face down in front of them, and simultaneously flip this card, revealing the two adversaries who will commence the fight. The players determine who will take the first turn by flipping a coin, or similar method, and the battle is ready to begin.
the Play
Play is broken up into rounds, during which each player has one turn. During her turn, a player has performs any or all of the following options, in the order shown below:
1. Activate One Character
2. Place Reinforcements
3. Have each character Perform One Action
When both players have finished their turns, the round is over and at this time they both fill their hands from their respective draw pools, back to the maximum eight cards. A player may choose to "pass" his turn for a given round, forfeiting any actions for that round. A player who passes may discard as many cards from her hand as she wishes before filling it back to eight cards.
Note: if there are not enough cards in a player's draw pool to fill his hand to eight, his discard pile is then shuffled and put in place as his new draw pool and the rest of his hand is filled from there.
Activating Characters
At the start of his turn, a player may activate one character by flipping it over so that it is face up. This character is now considered to have entered combat, and may be used to perform actions. Activating a character is optional unless the player has no active characters, in which case a face down character must be activated
Placing Reinforcements
A player may place any and all characters he currently has in his hand face down in front of him. Reinforcements which are so placed may not be activated until the following round.
Performing Actions
The actions a player may perform during her turn consist of the combat, maneuver, and special cards she currently holds in her hand. During her turn a player may have each active character perform one action. Characters that are face down but have not yet been activated may not he used to perform actions. In addition to those options available during a player's own turn, he may also play defensive cards to actions taken by his opponent during the opponent's turn (see below)
Choosing and Using Actions
Actions consist of combat, maneuver and special cards.
Combat and Maneuver Cards
Combat cards are broken up into four types of skills (hand-to-hand, weapons, brute force, and energy), and maneuvers into three types climb, jump and fly). Each combat or maneuver card has a number value which determines the power level of that specific action. The value ranges tram 2 to 8, with 2 being the weaker and 8 the strongest. Combat and maneuver cards may be used to attack, move or defend. The attack or move skill is listed at the top of the card and the defense skill at the bottom.
Special Cards
Special cards are specific to a certain character, and may only be used by that character. The effects and values of a specific card are listed on the card itself as well as the conditions under which they may be played.
Playing Action Cards
In order to have a character perform an action, the player must first determine whether or not that character is able to perform it. To do this, compare the number value of the action card with the number value listed under the same skill on the character card, if the value on the action card is equal to or less than the value of that same skill on the character's card, it may be used. If the action card has a higher number than the character's skill value, it may not be used by that character.
For example, in order to perform a level 7 energy blast, a character must have an energy skill value of at least 7 listed on her card. This character would not be able to use an energy blast 8, however, as it is greater than her skill value.
Note: each skill listed on a character's card has an attack action, make sure that you check it against the attack skill value on the character's card (also check a maneuver against move, and a defensive action against defend). To make this easier, attack values are listed in red, defend values in blue, and move values (for maneuver cards) are in green.
Once a player determines that an action may be performed by a given character, he must decide which of the opponent's characters that action will be taken against. When that choice has been made, the attacking player places the action card in front of the card of the character he wishes to attack. The opponent may immediately play a defensive action which may prevent the attack action from succeeding. IF he fails to do so, the action is considered successful, and the character being attacked has taken a hit. To indicate this, leave the attack action card In front of the victimized character's card.
Note: characters that are face down and have not yet been activated may not be attacked.
Defensive Actions
Defensive Actions are the only cards which may he played during the opponents turn. A defensive action may he played in response to an attack on a certain character. As explained above, it must first be determined that a character is able to play the desired defensive action, by comparing its number value to the appropriate defensive skill value on the character card. A defensive action is played immediately after an attack is placed down in front of a character. If it is successful, the attack is negated and both cards are placed in the discard piles of the players who played them. A defensive action is successful if it is of equal or greater value than the attack card it is being used to counter. Any type of defensive skill may be used to defend against any type of attack. For example, a character being attacked with a weapon strike of 5 may successfully counter that attack with an energy shield of 7 (or for that matter, a jump – evade, hand-to-hand, dodge, or any type of defensive skill may be used, provided a has a value of 5 or greater).
Range
Characters who are flying or atop a building or other large object are to be considered to be "at range" from those on the ground. Characters at range may only be attacked by ranged attacks. Ranged attacks include all energy blasts, any weapon which may be used at range indicated on character card), or by hurling an object at the intended victim).
Hurling Objects
In order to hurl an object at a character at range, the player must use a brute force card. First, it must be determined that the attacking character may perform that action by comparing values as described above. Next, the value of the brute force card is compared to the brute force value listed on the environment card of the object he wishes to hurl. If the brute force action card has a value equal to or greater than that of the object, it may be picked up and thrown. The attack value of the hurled object is then used to make the attack at the ranged character.
Note: the objects on both players environment cards may be used to hurl or maneuver (see below)
Maneuvers
Maneuver cards are used to put a character at range, or to evade attacks. Playing a maneuver counts as a character's action for the round, and may not be combined with any other actions. As with any other action, the maneuver card value number must he checked against the character's skill level to see if he is able to perform that maneuver (see above).
To use a fly card to put a character at range, simply place the card sideways across the character to indicate that she is flying. The same card may be used to land that character, simply declare that the character's action for the round is landing, and place the fly card in the discard pile.
To use a jump or climb card to put a character at range, first check that the card is usable by the character. Next, check to see it there is an environment card in play which has an object that the character might use to get in range. Climbing of jumping atop an object with a jump/climb level of three or higher will put a character at range. In order to jump or climb atop that object, the maneuver card played must be equal to or greater than the jump/climb level listed on the object's environment card. If the maneuver is successful, place the character's card across the object to indicate that he is atop it, and place the maneuver card down where the character card was (keeping all accumulated hits intact). As with flying, the same card may be used to get down to street level, it is then discarded, and the character card is returned to its place in front of the player.
Destroying Objects
During the course of play, a player may wish to have a character destroy an object, either to force an opposing character down from it, or prevent them from using it to get to range. If an attack action is played against an object and its value is equal to or greater than the defense level of the object (Indicated on the environment card), it is considered destroyed and the card is removed from play. If a character is atop an object while it is destroyed, he is forced to the ground (the maneuver card he used to go to range is discarded, and the character card is returned to the spot in front of the player).
Hits, Knock-outs and Victory
As described above, when an attack is not successfully defended, the action card is left in front of the victim's character card to indicate that he has taken a hit. When the number of hits piled in front of a character equals the toughness level indicated on the character card, that character is considered to be knocked out of the fight and the card is removed from play. All accumulated hits (action cards) are returned to the player who played them, and placed in her discard pile. If all of a player's active character cards are knocked out, he must immediately activate one (if possible) on his next turn. If all of a players characters cards are knocked out and he can not activate one on his nest turn, the game is over and he has lost.
Note: if at the end of a round a player has no active or inactive characters in front of her and she draws one from her draw pool, It is unfortunately too late. Since it would take her one turn to place the reinforcement and another to activate a character, she would still be unable to activate a character on the turn following her last active character being eliminated, and therefore she loses the game.