For those who haven't seen it, here's the intro:
http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/index.php?topic=134.0
Now onward to the second part -
After my brother and I agreed that the Grid is, more or less, equally important as the Specials, we figured we needed to start by quantifying one or the other (Grid or Specials). Because the character Grids have considerably less variables, they were the side we adressed first.
NOTE: we only ranked the 4-stat versions of characters, no 3 stats, but we did go ahead and rank the variant and clone cards, as long as they had IQ.
So, we figured to start adding points for various "pros" a person could have:
they get 1 point for every playable teamwork. (ATW)
they get +1 point for max-7, +2 points for max-8 (GMB)
they get +2 points for dual-Grid, +4 points for tri-Grid (DGB)
they get +1 point for every point under a 19 that they are or
they get -1 point for every point over 19 that they are (Cost)
So, some of the best grids in the game:
Heroes For Hire
5 (ATW) + 2 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) - 2 (Cost) = 7.0
Quicksilver
3 (ATW) + 1 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) + 1 (Cost) = 7.0 (many more 7.0s)
Sabretooth
4 (ATW) + 2 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) + 0 (Cost) = 8.0
Brainiac
5 (ATW) + 2 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) - 1 (Cost) = 8.0 (few more 8.0s)
Hulk
4 (ATW) + 2 (GMB) +2 (DGB) + 1 (Cost) = 9.0
Rhino
3 (ATW) + 1 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) + 3 (Cost) = 9.0 (these are the only 9.0s)
Shadow King
4 (ATW) + 1 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) + 3 (Cost) = 10.0
Professor X
5 (ATW) + 2 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) +1 (Cost) = 10.0 (these are the only 10.0s)
It's not a perfect system. It does end on an even 10 for the best 2 grids, which is a nice round number. While a character's cost is not always a factor when building a deck (because you're going to use H4H and build around them), it's certainly still a factor when trying to choose between, say, Quicksilver and Psylocke. Both have good offense, they're both a 7-6, but I use Quicksilver a whole lot more than Psylocke, for little other reason than that he's an 18 and she's a 20.
Here are some of the worst Grid rankings:
Apacolypse
3 (ATW) + 1 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) - 4 (Cost) = 2.0
Sunfire
2 (ATW) + 1 (GMB) + 0 (DGB) - 1 (Cost) = 2.0 (many more 2.0s)
Blue Beetle
1 (ATW) + 0 (GMB) + 0 (DGB) + 0 (Cost) = 1.0
New Warriors
2 (ATW) + 0 (GMB) + 2 (DGB) - 3 (Cost) = 1.0 (few more 1.0s)
Deathlock
1 (ATW) + 0 (GMB) + 0 (DGB) - 1 (Cost) = 0.0
Comm. Gordon & GCPD (and variant)
1 (ATW) + 0 (GMB) + 0 (DGB) - 1 (Cost) = 0.0 (these are the only 0.0s)
So, again, not a perfect system, but it produces only 2 people with a 10.0 and only 2 people with a 0.0, and a pretty good bell curve between.
The average Grid in OP comes out 4.7
The average Grid in MV comes out 4.8
The average Grid in DC comes out 4.8
The average Grid in IM comes out 4.6
Not a perfect system with the cost, but it certainly produces pretty well.
Thoughts?
like you said, not perfect, but a VERY good start
nice work. the 2 perfect 10s and 2 duds is magnifique
I like this basic +/- system. The fact it shows Shadow King and Professor X for how how awesome they truly are is fantastic. Not only is it nice to have a 16 point character with a 7, but having one with dual 7's is crazy. I can't stress enough how much of a liability max 6 characters are on the front line versus H4H. The Heroes 6 HY is a total pain in the ass when you don't have a level 6 power card, and the follow up 7 or 8 on the JW is unblockable.
Quote from: breadmaster on February 23, 2011, 01:59:23 PM
the 2 perfect 10s and 2 duds is magnifique
Thanks! Like most great things, this was a product of circumstance, too. It was awhile after working out some of the variables that we realized the 0-10 ranking.
Quote from: HotRod on February 23, 2011, 03:57:41 PM
I like this basic +/- system. The fact it shows Shadow King and Professor X for how how awesome they truly are is fantastic. Not only is it nice to have a 16 point character with a 7, but having one with dual 7's is crazy. I can't stress enough how much of a liability max 6 characters are on the front line versus H4H. The Heroes 6 HY is a total pain in the ass when you don't have a level 6 power card, and the follow up 7 or 8 on the JW is unblockable.
Thanks! Even aside from our quantifications, we pretty much agreed that few Grids were as good as ProfX and Shadow King.
Also, yes, a max-6 clearly has limitations on defense (with few exceptions). That's why I typically only use a max-6 if they have some serious heat (see Gambit). Which, by the way, is a good segue to the next few topics...
Be on the lookout for posts Part 3.1, Part 3.2, and Part 3.3, which will breakdown how we attempted to quantify specials.
Quote from: HotRod on February 23, 2011, 03:57:41 PM
I like this basic +/- system. The fact it shows Shadow King and Professor X for how how awesome they truly are is fantastic. Not only is it nice to have a 16 point character with a 7, but having one with dual 7's is crazy. I can't stress enough how much of a liability max 6 characters are on the front line versus H4H. The Heroes 6 HY is a total pain in the ass when you don't have a level 6 power card, and the follow up 7 or 8 on the JW is unblockable.
You dissin' the Max 6 again? I seem to recall someone using a Heroes for Hire deck getting their ass handed to them by a max-6 deck... :P
Don't make me break out the Ghost Rider again... :P
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 23, 2011, 06:33:19 PM
You dissin' the Max 6 again? I seem to recall someone using a Heroes for Hire deck getting their ass handed to them by a max-6 deck... :P
Don't make me break out the Ghost Rider again... :P
-BBH
Oh please! That deck didn't have any play testing done with it. Break out that max 6 deck again and I will crush your puny body on saturday! :P
Quote from: HotRod on February 23, 2011, 07:09:16 PM
Oh please! That deck didn't have any play testing done with it. Break out that max 6 deck again and I will crush your puny body on saturday! :P
Oh, don't you wish. No my friend, you get to take on the mighty Thor again. (Assuming Claude isn't borrowing that team) Or perhaps Avalon!
We'll see, I am bringing some trainees, so I have to loan out decks.
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 23, 2011, 08:03:38 PM
Oh, don't you wish. No my friend, you get to take on the mighty Thor again. (Assuming Claude isn't borrowing that team) Or perhaps Avalon!
We'll see, I am bringing some trainees, so I have to loan out decks.
-BBH
I'm actually pretty excitied about getting a chance to play that deck again. That deck is a deck I wish I came up with myself, a true masterpiece in my opinion.
Quote from: HotRod on February 23, 2011, 10:02:48 PM
I'm actually pretty excitied about getting a chance to play that deck again. That deck is a deck I wish I came up with myself, a true masterpiece in my opinion.
Yer makin' me blush here! :P
Such high praise! Even though, as I recall, you did beat me while I was using that team.
I've made a tweak to it that might make it slightly nastier... I'll see if it works in practice.
-BBH
Yeah, I did beat it with my FFP (I think?), but I don't know exactly how it's built. In theory it should be a rock solid team, though perhaps it could be tried with activators, or a different event set. I'd have to build a copy of it myself to play around with, but I don't have a X-Man hero (I have 2 1/2 sets of his specials, I'm not sure why!), and I don't have a Thor hero, or any Thor cards beyond 2 Gifts, and I think maybe the 8 multi?
You guys are getting way off topic, here, and it's bumming me out!
Quote from: ncannelora on February 24, 2011, 11:25:50 AM
You guys are getting way off topic, here, and it's bumming me out!
Okay, to stray back on the path - I'll rate the deck we're talking about using your system:
The Team consists of:
X-Man
Thor
Scarlet Witch
Dr. Strange
According to your rating system:
X-man is 7 points
Thor is 3(!?!?) points
Scarlet Witch is 6 points
Dr. Strange is 8 points.
Meaning my team ranks a 6, when you average it together.
What's funny is that Thor ranks a 3, but he's the powerhouse of the team. It's Thor that provides the game-winning strategy.
Dr Strange isn't bad, but does he warrant an 8?
-BBH
His grid does. You have to remember BBH that this is just the grid rankings, based on their stats vs their cost and teamwork playability. In that case, Strange with an 8 in his grid and relatively cheap cost ranks high vs Thor's max 7 and high cost.
We'll have to wait and see where they place after specials and inherents are taken into account
Yeah, this is just the grid ranking. I'm really looking forward to seeing what cannelora comes up with for ranking specials. I would think a system based on venture potential would be the best, but I could be wrong.
Lets use Cable and Thor as examples here.
Cable: 9 strength OPD, 7 intellect OPD, 6 fighting AN, +6 venture AW, and a teammate avoid 1-9 AD.
Thor: 12 fighting OPD (Marvels), 8 3 stat multi OPD, Viking Pyre, and Gift of the Gods.
Cable is quite the power house when it comes to venture potential, with 5 cards with a 6 or better total. While he hurts you with his grid, his specials are rock solid. When paried with a frontline of Spawn, and say X-Babies, his grid becomes less of an issue, and lets his specials truely shine.
With Thor, you have 2 big OPD attacks that can be searched for, which is basically a way of increasing thier occurance throughout a game. The IG code special (Viking Pyre) in Thor's hands is an absolutely amazing card, and if played correctly will win you games by giving you the ability to massively stack your deck. The only way I can think of to rate Viking Pyre, is to average out the venture total of the best hand it can give you, and assign that amount to it.
My apologies for derailing your thread!
Quote from: rucker73 on February 24, 2011, 07:30:12 PM
His grid does. You have to remember BBH that this is just the grid rankings, based on their stats vs their cost and teamwork playability. In that case, Strange with an 8 in his grid and relatively cheap cost ranks high vs Thor's max 7 and high cost.
Exactly, this is only the first portion of the ranking system. In terms of Grids, certainly Thor and Cable have great potential with their dual-grid 7, but their 23 cost obviously makes their Grids less appealing than Superman or Marauders.
Now, cost is only one portion of the system, one part of a person's determination to use a Character. As I mentioned, the cost of some of the more expensive characters isn't always an issue, since you can build around them (as you did with Thor), but it's still a factor on an individual basis.
Quote
We'll have to wait and see where they place after specials and inherents are taken into account
Yeah, the Specials definitely level the field a lot. There are certain people who don't have a spectacular Grid, or they even have a low Grid rating, but their specials are so spectacular that they shoot up our ranking system quick!
(Starjammers and Cyclops come to mind)
And some characters have a pretty amazing balance between great grid and great specials.
Trying to quantify the Specials was definitely the most challenging part. Particularly, trying to work out a ranking for the Card Advantage Specials.
Speaking of Viking Pyre, I'll tell you now, we didn't consider any cards (yet) that do not directly affect the Venture of the
current Battle. Obviously, that leaves out some really grreat cards (IB, BW, EP, GL, HS, etc). Granted, we can always try to factor those in, but it can be very difficult to predict just how much some of those cards will factor into the game. They tended to be much more circumstantial and, while you can try to manipulate circumstances, ultimately we thought they were a little too... co-dependent, if you will... too much to be able to factor them into this. I mean, I can play Viking Pyre, but if my opponent is going FTW right now, who cares what's left in my Draw Pile?
Anyway, more on that as I give the breakdown on Specials. Thanks for your feedback, guys =]
Did this ever get followed up on? Shadow King is in the top 2 right now, and he'll probably stay there considering his great specials. I've been waiting to see how it turns out...
I hope it's not too venture dependent, as there are some other good effects to consider that are more indirect (discard specials, negates...).
It is Venture dependant, but we did our best to weigh how other cards like DB, AO, teammate avoids, HG, JA, OC, AI, etc; all affect Venture still, in varying ways.
I have all of the info laid out. It is, by no means, difinitive, but it was certainly interesting to us. Mostly, we thought it was a fun way to rank characters as independently as possible.
Ultimately, Overpower is a team-game. Like team sports, there's no way to truly rank various players who play different positions. Even ranking players at the same position can be very tough, since they might do different things well. Overpower has this same kind of dynamic.
There is a lot of data to post, though, but I'll look into doing the follow to this soon. It'll be part 3.1, detailing how we calculated the attacks and other direct Venture Special cards.
Quote from: Hot Rod on February 23, 2011, 07:09:16 PM
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 23, 2011, 06:33:19 PM
You dissin' the Max 6 again? I seem to recall someone using a Heroes for Hire deck getting their ass handed to them by a max-6 deck... :P
Don't make me break out the Ghost Rider again... :P
-BBH
Oh please! That deck didn't have any play testing done with it. Break out that max 6 deck again and I will crush your puny body on saturday! :P
You lost to a max 6?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1dh_hLEu_w&feature=related#t=8m20s
;D
is there a list of heroes rated using this system somewhere or do i have to plug numbers manually? also, is there a list that also includes special card quality too?
Quote from: Shoe on August 09, 2013, 10:58:31 PM
is there a list of heroes rated using this system somewhere or do i have to plug numbers manually? also, is there a list that also includes special card quality too?
I'd have to do a bit of digging to find that spreadsheet I made. I'm pretty sure I never posted it anywhere, it was just something me and my brother toyed with a few years ago. I lost all my steam on it when I got a non-office job and life took over. Ultimately, as I said a few posts up, it's just so exhausting to try and quantify everything accurately :-\