Palatinus' OverPower Forum

In our circle, we don't like unbalanced games. There is no single card in OPL as unbalanced as DoW. I would say that if it worked as simply as POWER LEECH (even "as written" POWER LEECH), and it only discarded 4 cards from a Battlesite, then no biggie. Or, if it could be Negated, let alone avoided.

As it is, this card can reduce many games to little more than this, the way we decide who goes first - cutting your deck to see who cut the higher card.

If I get DoW after you discard your KL, I win.
If I get DoW before you get your GL, I win.

Obviously, that is an exageration, but not by much. Why should I be allowed to use 1 card, playable by ANY CHARACTER, that you can only counter (not even defensively) with 9 people.

Or, you would basically have to use an Any Hero deck, too, and we'd both have 1 wasted card each.

So, in our circle, we have a Gentlemen's Agreement to simply not use DoW. Simply put, a card that cannot be defended just tends to suck the joy out of the game for us.

Where do you stand?

1. If DoW didn't exist, you could just throw all your Any Heroes away. There would be absolutely zero point to playing them over a battlesite.

2. Even with the threat of DoW, battlesites are MUCH stronger than any heroes. The versatility, extra defense, ability to create combos/tricks, etc. is extremely powerful.

3. The existence of DoW expands the usefulness of several cards/characters. Battlesites decks are more dynamic and less "sturdy" than Any Hero decks, but you can decrease your battlesite power a tiny bit by running a GL special from the battlesite.

4. Ways to play around DoW

• GL specials
• KL specials
• AI specials
• Gods of Stone, Down But Not Out, GEN13 vs. The Regulators, etc.
• Stop building battlesites with so many specials under them
• Read your opponent to determine when it is in their hand and concede appropriately
• Play smart and utilize your overwhelming battlesite advantage to win before DoW is drawn

Generally, I dislike silver bullet cards. Yet, the dichotomy of battlesites being so much stronger up until the point DoW is drawn vs. the low duping/unusable nature of Any Heroes is an interesting interaction (and is strongly tied to the nature of your deck and personal playstyle), and ultimately it is very good for the game. Any Heroes are much, much weaker than battlesites, so it seems funny to restrict them even further by agreeing not to use DoW. Also, in order to even be able to survive with Any Heroes, you usually have to run a very specialized deck (either with an EE and other defensive chars, or very low special count with lots of redundant stats). If you are running a narrow deck that is able to use Any Heroes, you should probably be rewarded with the big swing in card advantage that DoW can bring.

If you find that "a card that can't be defended" (it can be though, as listed above) sucks the joy out of the game for you, where do you draw the line? If I am running a deck without negates, will you take all the draw three specials out of your deck? If you play a draw 3 and I have no way to defend it, you might suck the joy out of the game for me. If I use Any Heroes and my Guardian Angel is already gone, will you stop using level 8 powercards as teamwork followups to make a level 10 attack? I can't defend those either, so you might suck the joy out of the game for me.

Having different decks that are good and bad vs. varying archetypes is part of what makes CCGs so great, so trying to soft-ban cards in order to keep things more safe/simple is generally a bad idea.

Quote1. If DoW didn't exist, you could just throw all your Any Heroes away. There would be absolutely zero point to playing them over a battlesite.

This is only true if you can show me the battlesite that provides all of these cards:
AA, AC, AF, AG, AJ, AL, AM, AO (ZZ), AR, BC, BE, BL, BQ, BW, BY, DB, and EN. Even if you conclude that many of those cards are "useless", simply having both a BQ and a BY is something no battlesite can provide. At worst, you can say that playing with AnyHeroes is like playing with an intangible battlesite. Different, but not useless.

Quote2. Even with the threat of DoW, battlesites are MUCH stronger than any heroes. The versatility, extra defense, ability to create combos/tricks, etc. is extremely powerful.

Yes, as long as it's only a threat of DoW. As soon as it becomes a reality, though, you're hijacked. I don't like it when things so powerful are random.

Quote3. The existence of DoW expands the usefulness of several cards/characters. Battlesites decks are more dynamic and less "sturdy" than Any Hero decks, but you can decrease your battlesite power a tiny bit by running a GL special from the battlesite.

I suppose it's a valid point, that I can use a GL from my battlesite. But, that only means that in addition to using one of 9 characters to counter the DoW, I can also use one of 2 battlesites. That doesn't seem to help open things up.

Quote4. Ways to play around DoW

• GL specials
• KL specials
• AI specials
• Gods of Stone, Down But Not Out, GEN13 vs. The Regulators, etc.
• Stop building battlesites with so many specials under them
• Read your opponent to determine when it is in their hand and concede appropriately
• Play smart and utilize your overwhelming battlesite advantage to win before DoW is drawn

- yes, 4 characters have GL specials
- yes, 5 characters have KL specials
- idk, did I miss something? how can an AI special counter DoW?
- yes, Gods Of Stone will help me vs.Any Heroes (as will Starjammers' LS) but this takes my argument about who gets which card first, to a whole new level. Now, I'd have to hope that an EVENT will come in the same hand as my opponent's DoW... doesn't seem like much consolation.
- idk, Down But Not Out seems more likely to hurt my battlesite than his DoW. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.
- idk, Gen13 vs. Regulators seems like it opens up another problem for me - not being able to Negate my opponent's Web Headed Wizard and Power Leech. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.

QuoteGenerally, I dislike silver bullet cards. Yet, the dichotomy of battlesites being so much stronger up until the point DoW is drawn vs. the low duping/unusable nature of Any Heroes is an interesting interaction (and is strongly tied to the nature of your deck and personal playstyle), and ultimately it is very good for the game. Any Heroes are much, much weaker than battlesites, so it seems funny to restrict them even further by agreeing not to use DoW. Also, in order to even be able to survive with Any Heroes, you usually have to run a very specialized deck (either with an EE and other defensive chars, or very low special count with lots of redundant stats). If you are running a narrow deck that is able to use Any Heroes, you should probably be rewarded with the big swing in card advantage that DoW can bring.

I really can't argue for or against this, since I have no experience trying to survive tournaments. I mean, I've certainly won games using Any Heroes vs. my opponent's Battlesite deck. Beyond that, i guess I'd have to take your word for it. My experience says that, generally speaking, Battlesites provide more options and versatility, and so it can be more valuable than AnyHeroes, but I wouldn't agree that Any Heroes are "much, much weaker than battlesites"

QuoteIf you find that "a card that can't be defended" (it can be though, as listed above) sucks the joy out of the game for you, where do you draw the line? If I am running a deck without negates, will you take all the draw three specials out of your deck? If you play a draw 3 and I have no way to defend it, you might suck the joy out of the game for me. If I use Any Heroes and my Guardian Angel is already gone, will you stop using level 8 powercards as teamwork followups to make a level 10 attack? I can't defend those either, so you might suck the joy out of the game for me.

I meant it literally, when I said you can't defend DoW. No matter what your opponent can do to counter it, it's always a safe play because it cannot be defended - your opponent must use a turn in order to counter it. Aside from the difference that the examples you gave can all be defensively countered, they each fail another point - prolification.
Deck without Negates? I thought that was, like, sacrelige, or something...
Your Guardian may be gone, but let's not forget personal avoids to stop the lv.8 follow up, or the teammate avoids that aren't 9 or less, or the teammate avoids that are suite specific, or the EEs, or simply the DBs from the top of the turn.

QuoteHaving different decks that are good and bad vs. varying archetypes is part of what makes CCGs so great, so trying to soft-ban cards in order to keep things more safe/simple is generally a bad idea.

I guess I just see this part differently. I'm not arguing that there DoW should never have been made. I'm arguing that they did it wrong (as it cannot be defended - defensively). As such, I think it would be better if it was not created. I guess I should just be thankful that my circle sees it pretty much the same way.

If this game were made in 1991 I would be the one beating YOU with a life bar.

Quote from: Overtime on March 07, 2011, 08:20:38 PM
If this game were made in 1991 I would be the one beating YOU with a life bar.

i don't know what you're saying, but it made me laugh. So, that's worth something!  :D

Quote
This is only true if you can show me the battlesite that provides all of these cards:
AA, AC, AF, AG, AJ, AL, AM, AO (ZZ), AR, BC, BE, BL, BQ, BW, BY, DB, and EN. Even if you conclude that many of those cards are "useless", simply having both a BQ and a BY is something no battlesite can provide. At worst, you can say that playing with AnyHeroes is like playing with an intangible battlesite. Different, but not useless.

Even the worst battlesite has a special distribution that is comparable (and most likely superior) to what you listed, but much more importantly you a) draw them faster, b) get to decide which special to use for a given situation. Not to mention you can always find synergistic effects from a customized battlesite vs. Any Heroes always being a straightforward set of effects.

QuoteYes, as long as it's only a threat of DoW. As soon as it becomes a reality, though, you're hijacked. I don't like it when things so powerful are random.

Ban all one per deck cards, ban all characters except four people with identical stats.

Quote
I suppose it's a valid point, that I can use a GL from my battlesite. But, that only means that in addition to using one of 9 characters to counter the DoW, I can also use one of 2 battlesites. That doesn't seem to help open things up.

The main implication is that there are answers to DOW, and you have to evaluate the risk/reward of not using anti-DOW cards. You dislike DOW because it ruins your crappy deck? Play an anti-DOW site. You'd rather have more power/less stability? Well, that's the risk you take by using your battlesite OPD on something that isn't anti-DOW. Is your main complaint that not every site has a GL special? Play chess if you don't want to play a game that has asymmetrical starting conditions.

Quote
- yes, 4 characters have GL specials
- yes, 5 characters have KL specials

So pick one of them and use them. Don't want to use them? Then play Any Heroes. Or play a smaller battlesite. Or do one of a million other things people have done in competitive environments to win with battlesite decks vs. any heroes.

Quoteidk, did I miss something? how can an AI special counter DoW?

...

Quoteyes, Gods Of Stone will help me vs.Any Heroes (as will Starjammers' LS) but this takes my argument about who gets which card first, to a whole new level. Now, I'd have to hope that an EVENT will come in the same hand as my opponent's DoW... doesn't seem like much consolation.

Good players usually place DOW on a turn where they are going first. Wait for a Gods of Stone turn, bet big, and discard it. Or, be a good player and win in 3-4 turns, lowering the odds that they draw DOW or increasing the odds that Gods of Stone pushes you through for a big venture. Remember to breathe. Also, you have to drink water sometimes. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom. If you are tired, you should go to sleep. I'm sure you can figure some of this stuff out for yourself instead of trying to pedantically act like the things I've brought up aren't viable counters.

Quoteidk, Down But Not Out seems more likely to hurt my battlesite than his DoW. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.

Different decks do different things, make a deck that benefits from Down But Not Out. I obviously didn't mean "toss it in any deck as anti-DOW!"

Quoteidk, Gen13 vs. Regulators seems like it opens up another problem for me - not being able to Negate my opponent's Web Headed Wizard and Power Leech. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.

It seems like your problem is that you want everything to be simple/safe/clean, so you can play "the right" way where all of your card choices work the same in any given matchup. A lot of people in Magic hate combo decks because they aren't interactive with the opponent. Or land destruction. Or burn. But if those archetypes didn't exist, the game is simply "my beatdown vs. your beatdown, who has the bigger numbers?" That's not how CCGs work, and your idea of balanced Overpower sounds like "who has the bigger numbers?"

Quotebut I wouldn't agree that Any Heroes are "much, much weaker than battlesites"

Play more games and you'll come to the correct conclusion.

QuoteI meant it literally, when I said you can't defend DoW. No matter what your opponent can do to counter it, it's always a safe play because it cannot be defended - your opponent must use a turn in order to counter it.

Let's ban JW's because characters without an 8 stat can't defend a followup 8. Ban all cards that do different things. Matchups should all be the same, every time, or I'll just lose my mind!

QuoteI guess I just see this part differently. I'm not arguing that there DoW should never have been made. I'm arguing that they did it wrong (as it cannot be defended - defensively). As such, I think it would be better if it was not created. I guess I should just be thankful that my circle sees it pretty much the same way.

I'm sorry for your recent crisis regarding DoW. If I'm not mistaken, the timeline goes something like
1. Your group doesn't use DoW because "it's cheap" (1999-2011)
2. You post a deck that is susceptible to DoW, and when people bring this up your counterpoint is that "it never comes up vs. me because my opponent's don't use it" - laughter ensues (two days ago)
3. Coming to the realization that in "real Overpower" you need to be able to play against DoW, you make a rules thread asking if KL specials from the site can answer a DoW that has already been played, which it can't
4. Post a thread deciding that DoW is a Bad Thing

To me, this indicates that you've only been seriously thinking about how DoW effects the game for a very short period of time. Play more, play vs. good people on OPOnline, examine the card pool more, and you'll eventually realize that it isn't as big of a deal as you think it is.

I agree with Onslaught on this.

Nccannelora, I really like your style, i want to see you get better (that is, IF you want to. IF you want to just play for fun and non-competitively, thats perfectly fine also).

Download OPOnline and play someone from this forum. I think you could learn alot from a few games, even if you get stomped, just from getting outside the "closed mindedness" of your local circle.

ncannelora and onslaught.  I have loved reading a lot of the posts you have both put up on the boards and much respect is given to you both for sharing your opinions and thoughts with everyone.

Onslaught I think that you have a fantastic mind for this game and are clearly a great strategist when it comes to deck building and playing.  Normally I think your posts are insightful and informative, but I must say I am disappointed in you above post, you seem to be insulting and condescending towards ncannelora.

I see the points on DoW, and I agree that the card is too powerful, I play/played a lot and against some very good players (I on the other hand am not such a good player).  What I find is that the better players use any heroes much more often than battlesites.  I am aware of the many ways to stop or counter DoW but my issue with it is that it drastically narrows down an already small pool of usable characters.

I am all for balancing out any heroes and battlesites and I agree that without DoW battlesites are much more powerful.  I just think that DoW is too powerful (or perhaps...  over powered???  :)

Yeah, with a regular community of roughly a dozen people (correct me if I'm wrong), the rancor seems more than a little counterproductive. 

Quote from: rucker73 on March 07, 2011, 09:05:55 PM
What I find is that the better players use any heroes much more often than battlesites.

Out of the regionals where DoW was available, I believe 7 out of 10 of them were won by battlesite decks. At the last few 30+ person events I attended, the majority of decks in the elimination rounds were battlesites.

DoW on it's own is not too horrible, but when you pair it with Best Laid Plans, and Entropy Field it can be a real pain.

Really you either need to have the counter cards Onslaught mentioned, or really think out your deck.  Having redundancy in your deck is absolutely key here if you don't have GL or KL.  When your opponent draws DoW within the first couple turns you have to bunker down, limit greedy placing, and try to defend your critical chararcter long enough to get some activators on it.

Quote from: HotRod on March 07, 2011, 09:31:06 PM
DoW on it's own is not too horrible, but when you pair it with Best Laid Plans, and Entropy Field it can be a real pain.

Really you either need to have the counter cards Onslaught mentioned, or really think out your deck.  Having redundancy in your deck is absolutely key here if you don't have GL or KL.  When your opponent draws DoW within the first couple turns you have to bunker down, limit greedy placing, and try to defend your critical chararcter long enough to get some activators on it.

This brings up a good point that I forgot to mention in the "anti-DOW" strategies list:

• Play a big fat battlesite

I mentioned playing a slim battlesite so DoW had a smaller impact on you by the time it was played, but having a bigger site can be useful too. If you have enough activators to actually lay the four hits on DoW while smartly blocking with powercards, you are almost guaranteed to win the game from there. Once DoW is removed, you will be at a massive advantage with a battlesite vs. Any Heroes and should be able to mount a comeback.

I prefer a smaller battlesite, but it's just a matter of preference. I can see from HotRod's Havok deck that he uses a larger amount of activators, so his approach to playing around DoW is a different and equally viable option.

QuoteI'm sorry for your recent crisis regarding DoW. If I'm not mistaken, the timeline goes something like
1. Your group doesn't use DoW because "it's cheap" (1999-2011)
2. You post a deck that is susceptible to DoW, and when people bring this up your counterpoint is that "it never comes up vs. me because my opponent's don't use it" - laughter ensues (two days ago)
3. Coming to the realization that in "real Overpower" you need to be able to play against DoW, you make a rules thread asking if KL specials from the site can answer a DoW that has already been played, which it can't
4. Post a thread deciding that DoW is a Bad Thing

To me, this indicates that you've only been seriously thinking about how DoW effects the game for a very short period of time. Play more, play vs. good people on OPOnline, examine the card pool more, and you'll eventually realize that it isn't as big of a deal as you think it is.

you seem so... i don't know, wound up, i guess.
let me ask this simple question, i think it will be very telling. Do you enjoy playing the game, even if you lose?

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Post Merge: July 08, 2011, 01:11:20 PM

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Quote from: drdeath25 on March 07, 2011, 09:02:11 PM
I agree with Onslaught on this.

Nccannelora, I really like your style, i want to see you get better (that is, IF you want to. IF you want to just play for fun and non-competitively, thats perfectly fine also).

Download OPOnline and play someone from this forum. I think you could learn alot from a few games, even if you get stomped, just from getting outside the "closed mindedness" of your local circle.

Here's the thing. It doesn't sound like you want me to get better. It sounds like you want me to use more powerful cards. That is not the same thing.

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Post Merge: July 08, 2011, 04:11:30 PM

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Also, post whatever strategies or counter-decks you want. The simple truth is, there are no other cards in OP that cannot be defended. period. Devourer Of Worlds cannot be defended. This is a truth.

"DoW is a powerful card, to the point where my group doesn't use it"

Me: Well, here's how to beat a powerful card....

"Quit telling me to use more powerful cards!"

Telling you how to play around DoW somehow equates to telling you to use more powerful cards? I don't see why a competitive playstyle has to be mean only using the most powerful cards in the game. My favorite deck to use right now uses Venom in it, but there's no way in hell I'd say I'm not a competitive player.

Quote from: Onslaught on March 07, 2011, 11:57:48 PM
"DoW is a powerful card, to the point where my group doesn't use it"

Me: Well, here's how to beat a powerful card....

"Quit telling me to use more powerful cards!"

Telling you how to play around DoW somehow equates to telling you to use more powerful cards? I don't see why a competitive playstyle has to be equated with only using the most powerful cards in the game. My favorite deck to use right now uses Venom in it, but there's no way in hell I'd say I'm not a competitive player.

I know all of the ways to "beat" DoW. What I'm saying, though, is that it's garbage that you cannot do anything defensive about that card. All of the people in my circle think so. That's why we don't play with it. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, or get them to stop using it. I posted a poll because I was genuinely interested in how people outside our circle think.

Obviously, if I was going to play for money, or some kind of prize, I'd use DoW (if I went with AnyHeroes).

We don't play for money, though. We don't want to be pushed into using only the best characters and cards. Eliminating DoW works for us. Why do you have such a problem with that?

Quote from: ncannelora on March 07, 2011, 11:43:25 PM

Quote from: drdeath25 on March 07, 2011, 09:02:11 PM
I agree with Onslaught on this.

Nccannelora, I really like your style, i want to see you get better (that is, IF you want to. IF you want to just play for fun and non-competitively, thats perfectly fine also).

Download OPOnline and play someone from this forum. I think you could learn alot from a few games, even if you get stomped, just from getting outside the "closed mindedness" of your local circle.

Here's the thing. It doesn't sound like you want me to get better. It sounds like you want me to use more powerful cards. That is not the same thing.

We don't know your playstyle or anything like that about you, so its hard to help you with any strategy right now other than deck building. We are just saying DoW is a part of the Overpower game that was put in at the end of its life, when EVERYONE used battlesites, and nobody used any heroes. DoW brought any heroes back into the picture for people to even things up, and we have all had to deal with this card on the opposite end of it many times. The trick is to be prepared, and deciding how much you are willing to put into a deck to prepare for 1 card.

The easiest way to get rid of a DoW is to play Any Heroes. If you are playing any heroes also, you and your opponent have no use for the card at all. Or a well timed-out concede  For the record though, one of my personal favorite ways to get rod a DoW is by playing Reavers' "Deathstrike" from my Outback battlesite as the OPD, and search their deck for DoW, and remove it from the game. I have a better chance of getting my Reavers' activator (3 of them in my deck), than his DoW (1), i just have to make sure i draw out my opponents negates. Wasting my OPD on this card for the pure reason as to get rid of my opponents DoW before he draws it is a big change in a deck, but it's worth it for the rest you get out of the battlesite.

Its a very good card, that you are going to see in 100% of decks that use any heros, just remember the card was made for a reason, and its a part of the game everyone deals with equally, you and your opponent. Overpower is just such a good card game because anyone can win with any deck, you just have the use the strategy of that deck with your playstyle, and everyone is different. So there is no 'right' and there is no 'wrong' in overpower. Its all up to your style and what works best for you. Thats why Overpower is the only CCG I even play anymore, because the rest are so flawed. I guess i dont like to hear that Overpower is broken as the current rules are, when the current rules are what makes me love this game so much.

Quote from: ncannelora on March 08, 2011, 12:02:35 AM
We don't want to be pushed into using only the best characters and cards. Eliminating DoW works for us. Why do you have such a problem with that?

I just think you have a somewhat childish/egocentric view of the game. You want the best cards to be nerfed down to the power level of your favorite cards, so that the stuff you like is as good as the top tier stuff. This is silly, because no matter how much you nerf the top tier, something else will rise as top tier in its place. You can ban every character in the game except Leader and Ka-Zaar, and one of them will still rise as the best/most overplayed.

For an analogy, when Street Fighter 4 came out there was a new mechanic called "Focus Attack Dash Cancelling." To make a long story short, this mechanic essentially allowed Ryu to make an invincible reversal move become safe and, on hit, lead to massive amounts of damage. You would see lots of posts decrying that other characters should have been able to do this as well. "Why can't Vega FADC into Ultra like Ryu?" Well, Vega had much longer ranged attacks, better movement speed, etc. There are ups and downs to which character you select in Street Fighter, and it would be boring if they all had similar sets of tools. If you want to pick a character that can FADC into Ultra, pick Ryu. If you want to use a deck that can play around DoW, then pick one of the numerous choices listed above. If you don't want to use one of the choices listed above, it means you have a problem with which characters have which specials, not DoW itself. If your favorite character had a KL, I dunno if you would find DoW to be so unsavory.

All that being said, I'm not sure why you think I have a problem with the way you play. Don't post asking for deck advice if you don't want people to offer their advice. Don't post asking for people's opinions about a card if you don't want them to give their opinion on it. Play however you like, the point of a game is to have fun. If you guys have the most fun playing with DoW banned, then more power to you! I happen to disagree and think that DoW offers for a more diverse competitive landscape, so I am offering you my opinion. However, if you ever expect to interact with other players outside of your group (which is extremely fun), then you might want to pay attention to the universally agreed upon rules. Since my opinion aligns with what the official rules are, I (unintentionally) tend to promote it as more legitimate than dissenting views.

Quote from: Onslaught on March 08, 2011, 12:12:15 AM

Quote from: ncannelora on March 08, 2011, 12:02:35 AM
We don't want to be pushed into using only the best characters and cards. Eliminating DoW works for us. Why do you have such a problem with that?

I just think you have a somewhat childish/egocentric view of the game...

All that being said, I'm not sure why you think I have a problem with the way you play...

really?

(http://i.imgur.com/vVRdV.gif)

you mean you wish to surrender to me? very well i accept.

Nobody here has even contributed 1/100th of the amount of history, strategy, and insight in his posts here than Onslaught has. It seems all of those threads don't get any responses, but these other threads about rather unimportant topics get a ton of attention. There is no point in arguing with someone, when someone is giving you their opinion. Obviously both people here disagree and are trying to state their point. It doesn't make someone a 'dick' to post their opinion when you asked for it. There are some great overpower players on this forum for beginners to learn from on this board, i just wish their opinion was respected more, instead of closing your mind and just saying 'I am right, because this is what i want'.

If you want to learn how to win competitive Overpower matchups, read http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/index.php?topic=77.0

Alright... everyone get thier panties untwisted.

drdeath is right about these ridiculous arguments that are based on opinion only.  The fact of the matter is tournament level adivce is being given when feedback was asked for, and apparently it's too much for some to handle.

If at 10 years old I could stand Marcel tearing my 60ish card deck apart in about 15 seconds leaving me with 2 heroes, 14 power cards, about 4 specials and 1 teamwork; I think you guys can take a bit of heat over the internet.

Quote from: a_noble_kaz on March 08, 2011, 04:01:46 AM

QuoteI agree with Onslaught on this.

Nccannelora, I really like your style, i want to see you get better (that is, IF you want to. IF you want to just play for fun and non-competitively, thats perfectly fine also).

Download OPOnline and play someone from this forum. I think you could learn alot from a few games, even if you get stomped, just from getting outside the "closed mindedness" of your local circle.

this. this makes you a dick. or do you not consider it supreme condescension and otherwise douchey to talk down to people?

:o

Quoteyou mean you wish to surrender to me? very well i accept.

Sigh, some motherfuckers always trying to ice skate uphill....

Quoteyou respond with text walls, use proper english, and talk like complete assholes when someone doesn't agree with you

I'm sorry you find my use of proper English so offensive. I'll do my best to have more grammatical errors to appease you.

Quoteif you are somehow under the impression that ncannelora is incapable of building a dangerous team, and if you get that impression from his posts, then allow me to inform you otherwise. he can indeed make a tournament worthy team, as can anybody that plays this game. take a list of the following characters: scarlet witch, invisible woman, spawn, h4h, marauders, x-man, professor x, throw all their names in a hat, assemble the team you draw (fill in or make adjustments per the sum deck rule), pick a battlesite with a jw or an ao, or use DoW with any heroes, then play.

(http://i.imgur.com/tUqyr.gif)

Where does this aggressively misplaced persecution complex regarding "WE DONT USE CHEESE" come from? This is like the third time I've seen it brought up when it had NOTHING to do with what was being discussed.

Me: Hey here is how you play around DoW. It's really not so bad when you consider how strong battlesites are.
"WHAT? WE DON'T USE THE PICK FROM A HAT CHARACTERS..."

These bizarre proclamations about not using the best characters are just really puzzling to me. I won't even rehash the notion that you're probably more dismayed with your favorite cards/characters not being top tier than you are with the fact that a top tier exists.

On a side note, lol at including Marauders on your "cheese" characters list. Equally strange is listing a JW battlesite as being cookie cutter. I really hope this isn't why the X-Mansion battlesite posted the other day chose to omit Corporate Cutthroat.

Quotethe only necessary adjustment anyone needs to make to play to the superior level of onslaught and drdeath is to limit their pool of characters to about twenty.

The great thing about Overpower is that you are playing against the person sitting across from you as much as you are playing against the opposing deck. There is a lot of prediction, bluffing, and skillful maneuvers that will allow an 80% power deck to beat a 100% power deck. So when I am talking about "be a better player and DoW won't seem so unbalanced," I am absolutely not saying "yea make a Spawn deck" or anything like that. I'm saying that you have room for improvement in your play. We all do!

That being said, I like how you brought up that "playing at Onslaught" = choosing from the 20 best characters. Really? Even though I mentioned earlier that I'm using a Venom deck right now? Tell me more about this so called list of 20 chars that I restrict myself to using.

Quotealso, i would like to point out that a focus attack dash cancel is in no way analogous to DoW.

This is where things just went from sad to completely insane. I guess I should have known better than to try using an analogy, but then again I posted that before I knew you would just reply with things that had nothing to do with anything I actually said. My analogy was along the lines of "it's bad if you want all decks to have access to the same options." Reading what I wrote again, it looks pretty clear to me that this is what the analogy was trying to convey. Somehow, you interpreted this as "a character having a certain tool that another character doesn't have (FADC to Ultra)  =  DoW exiting in Overpower."

As far as calling me a douche/asshole/dick/etc:
I'm sorry that you view attacks on a deck or something like that to be personal. If you play a training card, and I say training cards are shitty, it doesn't mean I think you are a shitty person. What DOES make you a shitty person is having no reading comprehension - and then utilizing that lack of knowledge to personally insult someone because they have different opinions than you do about a card game based on comic book characters.

Quote from: Onslaught on March 08, 2011, 12:12:15 AM

Quote from: ncannelora on March 08, 2011, 12:02:35 AM
We don't want to be pushed into using only the best characters and cards. Eliminating DoW works for us. Why do you have such a problem with that?

I just think you have a somewhat childish/egocentric view of the game. You want the best cards to be nerfed down to the power level of your favorite cards, so that the stuff you like is as good as the top tier stuff. This is silly, because no matter how much you nerf the top tier, something else will rise as top tier in its place. You can ban every character in the game except Leader and Ka-Zaar, and one of them will still rise as the best/most overplayed.

For an analogy, when Street Fighter 4 came out there was a new mechanic called "Focus Attack Dash Cancelling." To make a long story short, this mechanic essentially allowed Ryu to make an invincible reversal move become safe and, on hit, lead to massive amounts of damage. You would see lots of posts decrying that other characters should have been able to do this as well. "Why can't Vega FADC into Ultra like Ryu?" Well, Vega had much longer ranged attacks, better movement speed, etc. There are ups and downs to which character you select in Street Fighter, and it would be boring if they all had similar sets of tools. If you want to pick a character that can FADC into Ultra, pick Ryu. If you want to use a deck that can play around DoW, then pick one of the numerous choices listed above. If you don't want to use one of the choices listed above, it means you have a problem with which characters have which specials, not DoW itself. If your favorite character had a KL, I dunno if you would find DoW to be so unsavory.

All that being said, I'm not sure why you think I have a problem with the way you play. Don't post asking for deck advice if you don't want people to offer their advice. Don't post asking for people's opinions about a card if you don't want them to give their opinion on it. Play however you like, the point of a game is to have fun. If you guys have the most fun playing with DoW banned, then more power to you! I happen to disagree and think that DoW offers for a more diverse competitive landscape, so I am offering you my opinion. However, if you ever expect to interact with other players outside of your group (which is extremely fun), then you might want to pay attention to the universally agreed upon rules. Since my opinion aligns with what the official rules are, I (unintentionally) tend to promote it as more legitimate than dissenting views.

maybe I should just give up.
I posted that I think DoW was a good idea, but the fact that it is unblockable - the only card in OPL that is - that fact bothers me and my circle, so we have a gentleman's agreement not to use it. We didn't ban it. If some one really wants to use it in a particular deck, they can and will. In general, we disclude it and it's fine.
This one card.
We didn't ban H4H.
We didn't ban JW cards.
We didn't change the rules regarding the cards, or deck building.
We just agree not to use this card.

Then I'm essentially scolded for saying that there is no defense for the card, when that is the truth, as if I'm a child that doesn't know what I'm saying.

Meanwhile I'm told all of the things I can do to play around the card, as if I've never considered these things. As if I have not studied every single card in OPL. As if I threw some tantrum instead of carefully considering all of my options and coming to a conclusion.

When I voice my thoughts, that you simply have a problem with the way we play, you play coy. You start by saying my view is childish/egocentric, but end by saying you're not sure how I ever drew the conclusion that you have a problem with our play.

That's either denial, or a lie.

Either you really can't see why I think this, despite my views being called childish/egocentric, or you're simply lying to me, hoping I can't tell.

I hope more people respond to the poll, because I'm genuinely interested in what they think of the card itself - not what they think of all the strategies developed to counter an unblockable card.

If you think that being unblockable is an important strength of the card - that's fine. I could understand that you find AnyHeroes to be vastly inferior to battlesites, and so you think they need all the help they can get. That's why there were 5 options in the poll.

Just don't tell me there are work-arounds for this unblockable card. You know what needs a work-around? Things that don't work correctly.

 :-[

Hmmm....  I was hoping that this would be a fun and informative discussion from a group of people who still love this game and that we could share our opinions freely.

I think that you've both kinda blown this out of proportion.  Onslaught's been a little mean and ncannelora has been overly defensive.

If we could maybe just get back to the normal way we discuss things that would be great.

My thoughts on DoW...  I don't love it, and wish there were more ways around it, but I am great full that it made any heroes more playable again.  (cuz like ncannelora said "I paid a lot of money for all these cards I would sure like to use 'em)

And I thank everyone for the advice given for more ways to dodge DoW.  Especially considering I don't have one of my own..  so I'm stuck with my battlesites.

Anyways.

Let's be friends!! 

Thanks, Rucker73. I suppose I was being overly-defensive.

I'm sorry, Onslaught and Dr.Death. I do respect your knowledge about the much more competetive dynamics of this game. As a 13 year old kid when this game came out, I never even knew there were tournaments. I'd never played any other CCGs, either. As an adult, there is a lot of analyzing and studying of cards I can do, not to mention my own recent experience, but there are still things that will slip my notice that you guys can teach.

Thanks for your responses for what they are, both solicited and informative.

Quote from: Onslaught on March 07, 2011, 10:27:38 PM

Quote from: HotRod on March 07, 2011, 09:31:06 PM
DoW on it's own is not too horrible, but when you pair it with Best Laid Plans, and Entropy Field it can be a real pain.

Really you either need to have the counter cards Onslaught mentioned, or really think out your deck.  Having redundancy in your deck is absolutely key here if you don't have GL or KL.  When your opponent draws DoW within the first couple turns you have to bunker down, limit greedy placing, and try to defend your critical chararcter long enough to get some activators on it.

This brings up a good point that I forgot to mention in the "anti-DOW" strategies list:

• Play a big fat battlesite

I mentioned playing a slim battlesite so DoW had a smaller impact on you by the time it was played, but having a bigger site can be useful too. If you have enough activators to actually lay the four hits on DoW while smartly blocking with powercards, you are almost guaranteed to win the game from there. Once DoW is removed, you will be at a massive advantage with a battlesite vs. Any Heroes and should be able to mount a comeback.

I prefer a smaller battlesite, but it's just a matter of preference. I can see from HotRod's Havok deck that he uses a larger amount of activators, so his approach to playing around DoW is a different and equally viable option.

I haven't voted because I haven't played against DoW.  I think playing a large/slim battlesite would be the best 'generalized' strategy to use.  My thought is that would either smother or reduce the affect of DoW to being less than devestating and more like midly annoying.  By annoying I mean no different than having a big special attack avoided or negated. I happen to use larger battlesites anyway, but that's based on using some homemade cards.  I did have a question about why Onslaught listed an AI special as a counter, but my guess is due to the fact he mentioned in another post that people tend to place DoW.  Once again since I haven't played against it I don't the typical 'timing' of when its played. When I first read the card I thought it was one of those cards you just play immediately and say suck it! Lol!

Quote from: ncannelora on March 08, 2011, 03:23:05 PM
Thanks, Rucker73. I suppose I was being overly-defensive.

I'm sorry, Onslaught and Dr.Death. I do respect your knowledge about the much more competetive dynamics of this game. As a 13 year old kid when this game came out, I never even knew there were tournaments. I'd never played any other CCGs, either. As an adult, there is a lot of analyzing and studying of cards I can do, not to mention my own recent experience, but there are still things that will slip my notice that you guys can teach.

Thanks for your responses for what they are, both solicited and informative.

@ncannelora

I guess since 'awards' were handed out you get the 'bigger man award'. Now everybody 'group huge'.  ;)

Quote from: Nostalgic on March 08, 2011, 06:51:40 PM

Now everybody 'group huge'.  ;)

;) I <3 Group Huge's

apology: to onslaught, for associating you with drdeath in the general accusations of douche.
secondly: after reading through the post, i think i understand your analogy better, but my disagreement with you still stands semantically because of the technical skill involved in a fadc.
thirdly: i would like to clarify the point i made about using "only the 20 best characters in any team", that was mostly pointed at drdeath. ncannelora asked for input about his team, and drdeath did nothing but spout top tier solutions, which are easy to recognize. of course switching one of his heroes for 3-stat spiderwoman in reserve is a great idea, but entirely besides the TCs point, which was to take his existing deck and enhance it.
matter of fact, that was in a different thread, come to think of it. i keep confusing the two...

yeah, i came off too strong, and behaved poorly, but please recognize that i respect and value your opinions just not necessarily your delivery. (hows that for a backhanded compliment? -_-)

anyway, DoW as being too strong? i dunno. i can tell you that i disagree with their solution to balltesites. instead of adding a few sweet any characters that are only represented as any characters, they made one that cripples battlesites. so instead of building up to match the balance, the tore down, so to speak. what affect this has on play from my perspective is limited because i don't use the card. i also don't use power leech. but i don't use them because they are not fun for me to use, and most of the people i play with think the same.


ps a venom deck? okay... sorry again. i will never again accuse you of being a top-tier spammer.

pps my favorite comic book hero ever is cyclops, and i wouldn't change a single thing about him in overpower. seriously, no complaints there. he's certainly not the best, but i def find ways to use him well.