Why isn't Cyclops Focused Force a OPD?
I believe it's because of it's extremely negative cost to play it. As the game evolved, level 9 attacks weren't considered to be that dangerous due to the amount of characters that have "Avoid 1 attack of 9 or less" specials. So the Cyclops card being a single stat level 9 that will leave him open to any attack above a level 7 is now considered to be allowable as a non-OPD.
none of this is official it is just my take on the reasoning.
Rucker has the right of it. the penalty is pretty big. Usually, I'm using it to force a block from my opponent. I try to play it only when it will kill some one, to get them to spend a big defense, like a negate or a teammate avoid - allowing another, non-stipulated attack to land afterward.
I figure, if it lands, Cyke is going to die soon thereafter, so I'd better be very happy with the result of it landing (i.e. K.O.), if it's not blocked by a big-D.
Even still, the penalty doesn't stack so if you have multiple copies you get to play the rest with no additional penalty. I see the point though.
Yeah, in my experience, if Cyke lands his 9E (FT), he's going to die that hand or the next. It's mostly because it's a lot easier to get things to stick to him at that point.
Also, the OPD version of the FT card is what Thor gets, a 12F!
Something interesting came up with this card in our circle recently, and I wanted to see what others think about it (again, there's not much "official" ruling to go on, since THE MARVELS were never "official").
the FT-Special landed, so Cyclops and Teammates cannot use Specials to defend Cyclops - but what about using an AC-Special (a shift attack). I argued that, though it was a defensive action, that i wasn't truly defending Cyclops, as I shifted the attack and let it stick on Rogue.
Seems legit to me. Furthermore, if I had Rogue's AG, I would have argued that I could use it after the AC, as the attack is no longer made on Cyclops - similar to using an AC, then a Teammate Avoid.
Thoughts?
I would believe that you cannot play the AC special in this case, because you are still defending Cyclops with the special card.
If someone jumps in front of you and takes a bullet.... I think they were definitely defending you.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: ncannelora on June 07, 2011, 07:17:43 PM
Something interesting came up with this card in our circle recently, and I wanted to see what others think about it (again, there's not much "official" ruling to go on, since THE MARVELS were never "official").
the FT-Special landed, so Cyclops and Teammates cannot use Specials to defend Cyclops - but what about using an AC-Special (a shift attack). I argued that, though it was a defensive action, that i wasn't truly defending Cyclops, as I shifted the attack and let it stick on Rogue.
Seems legit to me. Furthermore, if I had Rogue's AG, I would have argued that I could use it after the AC, as the attack is no longer made on Cyclops - similar to using an AC, then a Teammate Avoid.
Thoughts?
IMO, the spirit of the card would mean that an AC shift wouldn't be allowable.
If you think of it this way, there are many cards that act as a defensive action. The Focused Force card doesn't specify which type of defensive action cannot be taken, it just says that Cyclops cannot be defended by specials. That would seem to mean that any special that would act as a defensive action, regardless of what type, could not be used to defend cyclops.
i'd agree - any defense action you take as a result of an attack announced on cyke after his 9E hits must be eithe a power card or a tactic card (the ability to block an 8 is still possible there... but no one uses Tactics much as they reduce hand size with no great benifit generally).
I suppose it's just as well to let Cyke take the hit. Either way, it won't change how I use him or his hefty card ;D
A shift is considered a defense.
@CoS: What about Image Inducer? :P
(http://overpower.ca/cards/artifact/6.png)
You could use Image Inducer to shift the attack first, because it is not a Special. The game text is just that you cannot play a Special to defend Cyclops, it does not mention shifting at all.
Quote from: NickW on June 08, 2011, 07:30:21 PM
You could use Image Inducer to shift the attack first, because it is not a Special. The game text is just that you cannot play a Special to defend Cyclops, it does not mention shifting at all.
Right! So, I'm using 4Freedom Plaza as my Home Base and I play Focused Force via my Battlesite, then I can still shift via the Inherent Ability!
I meant an AC shift or a similar special.
Tactic Cards like image inducer are in the same boat as the Tactic Double Shots... they are not special cards defense so allowed after the 9E hits. Special Cards that shift are a no-go. (FF home base would still be allowed for this same reason)
Quote from: CoS on June 09, 2011, 01:24:44 AM
Tactic Cards like image inducer are in the same boat as the Tactic Double Shots... they are not special cards defense so allowed after the 9E hits. Special Cards that shift are a no-go. (FF home base would still be allowed for this same reason)
I only included it because you said nobody uses Tactic cards. :P
yeah, I'm tracking with you all. I just want to find loopholes to keep my characters alive longer. I'm sure on the flipside, I would have argued way against my opponent using an AC to defend Cyclops. :P
So, with that, I concede :'(
I was thinking more on this and I had an idea...
So, let's say Cyclops has landed his FT (9E), and Professor's BG (+2 to all actions) is in play.
If some one attacks Cyke with a lv.8 Power card, I would say he cannot use a lv.6 or 7 Power card to defend, since that means he's using Professor's special card to defend himself. Right?
What if Cyke landed his FT, and instead of Professor's BG being in play, it was Iceman's CM (Opponent is -1 to all actions)...
If some one attacks Cyke with an lv.8 Power card, I would say that Cyke can, then, use a lv.7 Power card to defend himself, since Iceman's card is Offensive, not Defensive. Thoughts?
Quote from: ncannelora on June 27, 2011, 02:51:00 PM
I was thinking more on this and I had an idea...
So, let's say Cyclops has landed his FT (9E), and Professor's BG (+2 to all actions) is in play.
If some one attacks Cyke with a lv.8 Power card, I would say he cannot use a lv.6 or 7 Power card to defend, since that means he's using Professor's special card to defend himself. Right?
What if Cyke landed his FT, and instead of Professor's BG being in play, it was Iceman's CM (Opponent is -1 to all actions)...
If some one attacks Cyke with an lv.8 Power card, I would say that Cyke can, then, use a lv.7 Power card to defend himself, since Iceman's card is Offensive, not Defensive. Thoughts?
Cards already in play do not apply to the penalty from focused force.
So if the Telepathic Co-ordination had already been played, then Cyclops can use the bonus.
But, you would NOT be able to play Telepathic co-ordination in conjunction with a power card as a response to the attack, because it's a special.
-BBH
Okay, so you're saying even though these cards defend people...
CT - moving attacks from Cyclops to a teammate for remainder of game
AM, BG, and BH - which add to defensive actions
KC - which pulls all attacks to one person
if they're already in play, Cyclops gains their defensive benefits? Who else agrees?
Forcused Forse states that he "cannot be defended by special cards," not "Cyclops may not benefit fromdefensive specials." I would think specials that are direct defenses like AG, AD, AO, AC, ect, are what he's being restricted from using.
If I play a special which states, "Only X can be attacked until the end of the game, or he is KO'ed" that would still "defend" Cyke cause it's purpose is not to defend, but to intigate my opponent into attacking X. Cyke isn't being defended, he simply can't be attacked. I would say this type of special would work if played either before OR after Focused Force.
Telepathic Co-ordination also doesn't defend Cyclops, it simply aloows him a better chance to defend himself with power cards. I personally see no reason why Cyke couldn't benefit from TC in conjunction with a power card on the defensive, as the special itself doesn't apply a "defense," just a bonus.
Vertigo, whether played before or after Cyke loses his special defense, could not be used to shift attacks from him because that would be "special defense," a.k.a. a special which defends an attack aimed at him.
As far as removes, since removes can only be played offensively, I would add that those specials could still be used to remove hits that have already landed, same with the AO special.
That's my 2 cents
Quote from: Demacus on July 14, 2011, 10:19:10 AM
Forcused Forse states that he "cannot be defended by special cards," not "Cyclops may not benefit fromdefensive specials." I would think specials that are direct defenses like AG, AD, AO, AC, ect, are what he's being restricted from using.
If I play a special which states, "Only X can be attacked until the end of the game, or he is KO'ed" that would still "defend" Cyke cause it's purpose is not to defend, but to intigate my opponent into attacking X. Cyke isn't being defended, he simply can't be attacked. I would say this type of special would work if played either before OR after Focused Force.
Telepathic Co-ordination also doesn't defend Cyclops, it simply aloows him a better chance to defend himself with power cards. I personally see no reason why Cyke couldn't benefit from TC in conjunction with a power card on the defensive, as the special itself doesn't apply a "defense," just a bonus.
Vertigo, whether played before or after Cyke loses his special defense, could not be used to shift attacks from him because that would be "special defense," a.k.a. a special which defends an attack aimed at him.
As far as removes, since removes can only be played offensively, I would add that those specials could still be used to remove hits that have already landed, same with the AO special.
That's my 2 cents
Basically, if Cyclops is attacked and you have a special that could normally be played defensively in response to an attack, it cannot be played. Cyclops can still benefit from specials that are
in play but you cannot play them in response to an attack. So, yes, he gets the bonus from Telepathic Co-ordination so long as it is in play before he is attacked. You cannot play it in response to an attack on him, however. Same thing with a special that only allows someone to be attacked. As long as it is not being played defensively in response to an attack on Cyclops it is fine. And since Vertigo cannot be played defensively, if you play it on your turn, you can still shift attacks from Cyclops because you now have the
ability to do that, you are not playing a special to do it
as the defensive action.
I agree. The Vertigo one seems fine to me too (although I don't use Marauders, so I don't care too much on that one). Seems to me, like others are saying, as long as you're not playing the Special defensively to nullify an attack aimed at Cyke, it seems fine.
Also, seems like I could play a BJ-Special on Cyke (again, as an offensive action), but not a CW (since it must be used to avoid first). This supports my assertion that Gambit is better than X-Man ;D
Vertigo can't bu used defensivly? I must have missed that ruling. Did they do that to stop abuse, cause it's written from a defensive angle? Just wondering.
Quote from: Demacus on July 14, 2011, 03:33:05 PM
Vertigo can't bu used defensivly? I must have missed that ruling. Did they do that to stop abuse, cause it's written from a defensive angle? Just wondering.
Yeah, they made that ruling to curb the overuse of Marauders. It came in about the same time as the 'dead is dead' rule so that Marauders/X-Babies combinations wouldn't be prevalent.
-BBH
Nice... We have a list of what specials are playable offensively, defensivly or both somewhere, right? I need to study up.
Quote from: Demacus on July 14, 2011, 04:21:21 PM
Nice... We have a list of what specials are playable offensively, defensivly or both somewhere, right? I need to study up.
I use this page from overpower.ca
http://overpower.ca/pages/meta.php (http://overpower.ca/pages/meta.php)
Thank you.
I was just re-reading Focused Force, and I noticed something I didn't before. Now, I'm not saying it changes how the card has been decided to be played, but it does open up an arguement for a different interpretation.
The special reads: " Acts as a level 9 Energy attack. If successful, Cyclops or Cyclops teammates may not defend Cyclops with Special cards for remainder of game."
Unfettered Might for Thor has the same issue.
Basically the issue comes from the beginning of the second line. "If successful, X OR X teammates may not defend..." It almost sounds like a choice. If the attack is successful you choose wether Cyclops or his teammates can no longer use specials to defend him. If it said "X AND X teammates," that would be crystal clear that no special defensive is allowed for this guy for the remainder of the game, but it's not written that way.
Loophole?
I think the Overpower designers just didn't have a firm grasp of the use of the word "nor".
You are probablly right, Palatinus. Just thought I'd point it out. :D
We'll try our best to have proper wording when we get the set printed.
Not a bad idea. Should we proof-read any of the other cards in The Marvels? lol