Palatinus' OverPower Forum

I've seen this mentioned a few times and, as an X-men fan, I really like the idea. I'm just curious about various circumstances that might arise from this, that I haven't fully considered.

Thoughts?

If someone is restricting their team to characters on a homebase, especially those homebases with negative inherents, there should be some logical advantage.  :P There may be a need for an additional stipulation on the defense to make it an unmodified power card, but it would still help.  The exceptions would be inherent abilities that grant a bonus to power card defense.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:45:19 PM

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What are the 'overused homebases'?  I mean besides FFP of course.  :P

Well, I could easily see this getting abused with Asteroid "M" or Muir Island.

Do you mean do to the battlesite inherent, the specials of the characters, or the combination of the two?  Is there some trick with those two battlesites that would particularly exploit the shift mechanic?

Their Aspect cards. They read,

QuoteFor remainder of game, Muir Island's (or Asteroid "M"'s) team may draw 1 card from top of
            Draw Pile immediately after blocking an attack using an Intellect (or Fighting)
            Power card. Discard if duplicate.

So, on with Muir Island, every time I shift an attack to Professor X to block it with his 7I Power card, I could draw a card. This also makes it much easier to use Colossus or Nightcrawler on that team.

And on Asteroid "M", every time I shift an attack to Quicksilver to block it with his 6F Power card, I could draw a card. This also makes it much easier to use Rogue and Scarlet Witch on that team (although her Negates are more or less mandatory).

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Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:45:13 PM

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Quote from: ncannelora on March 23, 2011, 06:00:20 PM
Their Aspect cards. They read,

QuoteFor remainder of game, Muir Island's (or Asteroid "M"'s) team may draw 1 card from top of
            Draw Pile immediately after blocking an attack using an Intellect (or Fighting)
            Power card. Discard if duplicate.

So, on with Muir Island, every time I shift an attack to Professor X to block it with his 7I Power card, I could draw a card. This also makes it much easier to use Colossus or Nightcrawler on that team.

And on Asteroid "M", every time I shift an attack to Quicksilver to block it with his 6F Power card, I could draw a card. This also makes it much easier to use Rogue and Scarlet Witch on that team (although her Negates are more or less mandatory).

For that matter, with Asteroid "M", I would probably only ever use Magneto's 3-stat, at that point.

Good examples. Aspect cards are the 'aspect' of the game that I am the least familiar with.  However, I'm not so worried about it being broken if it depends on a randomly drawn aspect card being in play.  I suppose some of the counters for DoW would work against that as well.  Another way to modify the shift mechanic would be to allow 1 shift per battle or require that to shift the attack you have to "burn" a card from the draw pile.    Sort of like a 'free' image inducer.

it would not even be acceptable if it did not also require that 1) the attack be blocked and 2) the block must be made with a power card. Still is way to powerful for certain home bases.

Quote from: CoS on March 23, 2011, 06:41:53 PM
it would not even be acceptable if it did not also require that 1) the attack be blocked and 2) the block must be made with a power card. Still is way to powerful for certain home bases.

Yeah, the erratum regarding the shift would apply to the other Homebases, too.

But I think that Muir Island and Asteroid "M" would gain too much. Still, it's a fun idea  :)

Quote from: ncannelora on March 23, 2011, 06:45:36 PM

Quote from: CoS on March 23, 2011, 06:41:53 PM
it would not even be acceptable if it did not also require that 1) the attack be blocked and 2) the block must be made with a power card. Still is way to powerful for certain home bases.

Yeah, the erratum regarding the shift would apply to the other Homebases, too.

But I think that Muir Island and Asteroid "M" would gain too much. Still, it's a fun idea  :)

With the penalty of burning a card or two from the draw pile, and the 'power card only' requirement for defense I think it its at least worth testing.  It's also not as good as FFP since they don't have to burn cards to shift the attacks.

I like the idea of some kind of basic benefit from using a homebase beyond just not having a sum deck limit.  I'm not sure the shift power is the best option, but maybe it is.  Something that is always there as a benefit would be great though because it really would help the bases with drawbacks.

This was actually my house rule and in my admittedly small circle we love it and have yet to find any problems with it after about a year of playing this way. I think it's just logical that a real team like the X-men or Avengers should have a benefit that a random assortment of heroes like Spawn, X-Man, X-Babies, Scarelt Witch, Heroes for Hire teaming for the first time wouldn't have.

More than that it makes those teams playable in a competative environment. For a game based on comic books it is ludicrous that making an Avengers team actually hurts you significantly due to mismatched powergrids. This takes that out of the equation in a balanced way. Now your mismatched grids can be used for defense only.

Even with this bonus there are still obvious drawbacks 1-When you lose a hero you are going to have Powercard discards that most standard teams won't have, 2-your deck construction is limited to 4 of 6 characters instead of every character in the game. 3-in about 20-percent of cases the homebase has a negative inherant. 4-Your opponent can always play an anti-shifiting card to destroy this strategy see Brass or Bastion's inherant. 5-If your opponent is using Marvel Universe they have Venture advantage every battle.

So yes it is a good, much needed benefit to allow real comic teams to overcome the problem of mismatched grids but not without some costs.

Quote from: The Dude on April 10, 2011, 03:12:36 PM
This was actually my house rule and in my admittedly small circle we love it and have yet to find any problems with it after about a year of playing this way. I think it's just logical that a real team like the X-men or Avengers should have a benefit that a random assortment of heroes like Spawn, X-Man, X-Babies, Scarelt Witch, Heroes for Hire teaming for the first time wouldn't have.

More than that it makes those teams playable in a competative environment. For a game based on comic books it is ludicrous that making an Avengers team actually hurts you significantly due to mismatched powergrids. This takes that out of the equation in a balanced way. Now your mismatched grids can be used for defense only.

Even with this bonus there are still obvious drawbacks 1-When you lose a hero you are going to have Powercard discards that most standard teams won't have, 2-your deck construction is limited to 4 of 6 characters instead of every character in the game. 3-in about 20-percent of cases the homebase has a negative inherant. 4-Your opponent can always play an anti-shifiting card to destroy this strategy see Brass or Bastion's inherant. 5-If your opponent is using Marvel Universe they have Venture advantage every battle.

So yes it is a good, much needed benefit to allow real comic teams to overcome the problem of mismatched grids but not without some costs.

Exactly. Maybe I should just join your circle  ;D

Quote from: The Dude on April 10, 2011, 03:12:36 PM
Even with this bonus there are still obvious drawbacks 1-When you lose a hero you are going to have Powercard discards that most standard teams won't have, 2-your deck construction is limited to 4 of 6 characters instead of every character in the game. 3-in about 20-percent of cases the homebase has a negative inherant. 4-Your opponent can always play an anti-shifiting card to destroy this strategy see Brass or Bastion's inherant. 5-If your opponent is using Marvel Universe they have Venture advantage every battle.

So yes it is a good, much needed benefit to allow real comic teams to overcome the problem of mismatched grids but not without some costs.

DAAAAAANG!  :D
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk281/duhflushtech/GIF%20Files/friday.gif)

Good points.  ;D

I may still play it like an image inducer is always in effect or burn a card from the current hand to shift, but that's case closed for me. LOL!

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Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:45:00 PM

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Quote from: ncannelora on March 23, 2011, 06:00:20 PM
Their Aspect cards. They read,

QuoteFor remainder of game, Muir Island's (or Asteroid "M"'s) team may draw 1 card from top of
            Draw Pile immediately after blocking an attack using an Intellect (or Fighting)
            Power card. Discard if duplicate.

So, on with Muir Island, every time I shift an attack to Professor X to block it with his 7I Power card, I could draw a card. This also makes it much easier to use Colossus or Nightcrawler on that team.

And on Asteroid "M", every time I shift an attack to Quicksilver to block it with his 6F Power card, I could draw a card. This also makes it much easier to use Rogue and Scarlet Witch on that team (although her Negates are more or less mandatory).

Just thought of a potential fix for this...

If an attack is shifted using the "homebase shift rule...  :P", the defense must be made with a power card that matches the 'primary power type' of new target character.  In the cases you mentioned both Xavier and Quicksilver would have to use an energy power card for defense.  Characters with dual/tri- stats like ghost rider or ironman would have a choice, or only allow them to defend shifted attacks with the 'primary power type' that's in the majority for the whole team.  8)

Edited for stat-3 quicksilver...

I think this is getting too complicated, but the idea definitely has merit.  There may be a good way to balance this, but I think it should be able to be done with as few qualifiers as possible.

Quote from: Palatinus on April 12, 2011, 10:09:24 PM
I think this is getting too complicated, but the idea definitely has merit.  There may be a good way to balance this, but I think it should be able to be done with as few qualifiers as possible.

Suggestions?  :P

I was only making the suggestion to address the problem pointed out in the post I was responding to. 

Quote from: Nostalgic on April 13, 2011, 12:00:30 PM

Quote from: Palatinus on April 12, 2011, 10:09:24 PM
I think this is getting too complicated, but the idea definitely has merit.  There may be a good way to balance this, but I think it should be able to be done with as few qualifiers as possible.

Suggestions?  :P

I was only making the suggestion to address the problem pointed out in the post I was responding to. 

Shifting is something I haven't had experience playing or playing against in either a broken or fixed format.  I'm not entirely clear on what the errata is on FFP that is supposed to have fixed the imbalance of the card.  I don't mean to criticize the worthiness of your idea.  I just mean to say that maybe it needs to be worded in a simpler way or something along those lines.  I do like the idea of an inherent ability that you get just for having a homebase though.  Something beyond the printed ability.

Quote from: Palatinus on April 13, 2011, 12:18:06 PM
Shifting is something I haven't had experience playing or playing against in either a broken or fixed format.  I'm not entirely clear on what the errata is on FFP that is supposed to have fixed the imbalance of the card.  I don't mean to criticize the worthiness of your idea.  I just mean to say that maybe it needs to be worded in a simpler way or something along those lines.  I do like the idea of an inherent ability that you get just for having a homebase though.  Something beyond the printed ability.

Oh ok.  The errata fixed the problem of allowing you to just spread hits around to keep characters alive without having to defend the attacks.  It also reduced the options for defense since shifted attacks had to be defended with power cards.  You couldn't just wait for the big attack and shift it to the character who happened to have the AG special in a given hand. 

I was suggesting that if all homebases were allowed a similar shift I.A., it should be a little more restrictive. Simply put, all homebases would have the same shift ability as FFP, but each character would have to defend with their 'strongest' (highest numerical value) power type. Though the Fantastic Four's I.A. and errata would remain the same  I'll give some examples using the fantastic four.  If you shifted an attack from Invisible Woman to the Thing, he would have to use a strength power card to defend. If you shifted an attack from Thing to Mr. Fantastic, he would have to use an intellect power card to defend.  If you shifted an attack from Mr. Fantastic to Human Torch, he would have to use an energy power card for defense.   

That also takes care of the apect problem for a couple of homebases ncannelora point out. Shifting an attack to Xavier and using his intellect to defend so you could draw another card wouldn't work because in Xavier's case you'd have to use enegery for defense (his strongest power type).

Quote from: Nostalgic on April 13, 2011, 01:21:16 PM

Quote from: Palatinus on April 13, 2011, 12:18:06 PM
Shifting is something I haven't had experience playing or playing against in either a broken or fixed format.  I'm not entirely clear on what the errata is on FFP that is supposed to have fixed the imbalance of the card.  I don't mean to criticize the worthiness of your idea.  I just mean to say that maybe it needs to be worded in a simpler way or something along those lines.  I do like the idea of an inherent ability that you get just for having a homebase though.  Something beyond the printed ability.

Oh ok.  The errata fixed the problem of allowing you to just spread hits around to keep characters alive without having to defend the attacks.  It also reduced the options for defense since shifted attacks had to be defended with power cards.  You couldn't just wait for the big attack and shift it to the character who happened to have the AG special in a given hand. 

I was suggesting that if all homebases were allowed a similar shift I.A., it should be a little more restrictive. Simply put, all homebases would have the same shift ability as FFP, but each character would have to defend with their 'strongest' (highest numerical value) power type. Though the Fantastic Four's I.A. and errata would remain the same  I'll give some examples using the fantastic four.  If you shifted an attack from Invisible Woman to the Thing, he would have to use a strength power card to defend. If you shifted an attack from Thing to Mr. Fantastic, he would have to use an intellect power card to defend.  If you shifted an attack from Mr. Fantastic to Human Torch, he would have to use an energy power card for defense.   

That also takes care of the apect problem for a couple of homebases ncannelora point out. Shifting an attack to Xavier and using his intellect to defend so you could draw another card wouldn't work because in Xavier's case you'd have to use enegery for defense (his strongest power type).

The easiest way for me to describe the FFP I.A. is:
you can use plain Power cards, usable by any Front Line Character, to defend any Teammate.

As for the "highest Grid type" restriction, that could work. Although, I'm not sure how much it would help with Muir Island or Asteroid "M", mostly because it still lets you get to a 6. I'd just use Shadowcat and 3-stat Quicksilver on my Front Lines. Granted, Prof X has the 7I, but being able to defend Colossus & Nightcrawler with a lv.6I card... or being able to defend Scarlet Witch with a lv.6F card... just not sure that is the best fix... I don't think this is necessarily it, either, but I do have another idea...
maybe we just a second Any-Location Aspect card!
"For remainder of game, Front Line characters may defend Teammates with any usuable, unmodified Power cards." !!
Thoughts?

Quote from: ncannelora on April 13, 2011, 01:36:08 PMAs for the "highest Grid type" restriction, that could work. Although, I'm not sure how much it would help with Muir Island or Asteroid "M", mostly because it still lets you get to a 6. I'd just use Shadowcat and 3-stat Quicksilver on my Front Lines. Granted, Prof X has the 7I, but being able to defend Colossus & Nightcrawler with a lv.6I card... or being able to defend Scarlet Witch with a lv.6F card... just not sure that is the best fix...

That's what I was trying to address after the comma earlier in the earlier post...

Quote from: Nostalgic on April 12, 2011, 04:58:40 PMCharacters with dual/tri- stats like ghost rider or ironman would have a choice, or only allow them to defend shifted attacks with the 'primary power type' that's in the majority for the whole team.  8)

Edited for stat-3 quicksilver...

In dual-stat-3-quicksilver's case just add up all the energy stats of the whole team and compare it to the total of the fighting stats of the whole team.  Which ever power type has the highest number would be the power type he'd have to use to defend teammates with for that game. I don't think this is any 'harder' to calculate than sum deck.

Quote from: ncannelora on April 13, 2011, 01:36:08 PM
maybe we just a second Any-Location Aspect card!
"For remainder of game, Front Line characters may defend Teammates with any usuable, unmodified Power cards." !!
Thoughts?

It's a nice idea.  A little harder to build a team strategy around unless you have some cards to fish out the aspect. 

oh, I see... whole team... yeah, that could certainly work, still. I'd have to double check build combinations, but that might be enough to squash what you can do with both Asteroid M and Muir Island...

Anyway, regarding "building around..." that's kind of my point. I like this idea as an added feature, but I wouldn't want people to start building their decks around it. That seems like it would cheapen it. Besides, that would also give FFP (the originator) a constant and an advantage.

Another possible solution may be to just say "Once per battle you may shift any attack to target teammate."  That way you don't need to worry about specifying what kind of card can defend and you can't abuse it for every attack.  That gives your opponent the opportunity to bluff you out by playing an attack they know you will want to move while holding an attack they really don't want moved.

Quote from: ncannelora on April 13, 2011, 02:06:31 PM
oh, I see... whole team... yeah, that could certainly work, still. I'd have to double check build combinations, but that might be enough to squash what you can do with both Asteroid M and Muir Island...

The closest you could come to 'breakng it' in with the Muir Island team is by using Xavier, Shadowcat, Banshee, and Captain Britain.  The total energy is 25 and the total intellect is 24.  :D Which means shadowcat would still have to use energy to defend teammates.  ;)

With the Astroid M team Mystique probably gives the most options to try to make use of her fighting ...

Palatinus solution is one I've also considered, but may not be enough to 'save' the deficit of mismatched grids.

Got it.

"Defensive Strategy" - Any Location <OPD>
"For remainder of Game, any Front Line Character may use a Power card to defend a teammate listed on their Home Base. May not be used with any other Aspect cards."

This wording would mean you can't use it with Team Overpower, or any of the other non-roster Home Bases (since there are no teammates listed on them), and it would also prevent abuse of the Muir Island and Asteroid "M" Aspect cards.

Thoughts?

Quote from: ncannelora on April 13, 2011, 03:25:35 PM
Got it.

"Defensive Strategy" - Any Location <OPD>
"For remainder of Game, any Front Line Character may use a Power card to defend a teammate listed on their Home Base. May not be used with any other Aspect cards."

This wording would mean you can't use it with Team Overpower, or any of the other non-roster Home Bases (since there are no teammates listed on them), and it would also prevent abuse of the Muir Island and Asteroid "M" Aspect cards.

Thoughts?

It seems pretty balanced.  You've got to chose which aspect you want if your homebase has an Aspect worth using, but it makes all homebases have a usable aspect and gives you a reason to use a location with a negative inherent over just using marvel universe or something.

Quote from: ncannelora on April 13, 2011, 03:25:35 PM
Got it.

"Defensive Strategy" - Any Location <OPD>
"For remainder of Game, any Front Line Character may use a Power card to defend a teammate listed on their Home Base. May not be used with any other Aspect cards."

This wording would mean you can't use it with Team Overpower, or any of the other non-roster Home Bases (since there are no teammates listed on them), and it would also prevent abuse of the Muir Island and Asteroid "M" Aspect cards.

Thoughts?

That works.  :)

Heck it almost works as the I.A. for homebases we've been trying to figure out. Lol!