When a card says "No cards with the word 'avoid' may be played this battle" or "can only be defended with a defensive special" does this include activators replaced by specials? Can an avoid from a battlesite be played even if no cards with the word avoid can be played and can an avoid from a battlesite count as a defensive special for cards that can only be defended by a special?
You're exchanging the activator (and playing the activator) for a special in the battlesite. You then play the special card from the battlesite.
You're still playing the card. So if it has the work 'avoid' then it may not be played, regardless of where it's being played from.
-BBH
Here's a question along similar lines...
If some one plays Captain Marvel's
Quote* STRENGTH OF HERCULES (AP) <JL> {U}
Acts as a level 6 Strength attack. Cannot be defended by a card with an
Energy icon.
Then, can it be defended with a card from a Battlesite? I mean, the Special being retrieved wouldn't necessarily have an Energy Icon, but the Activator would...
Technically no, the Activator counts as part of the defense. I don't like to agree with it but it makes perfect sense.
Relevant QNA posts:
QuoteQuestion: Are the icons on an activator in play? - "Dum Dum Dugan" - Avoid energy draw one. - Do I play this against the Energy Icon on the activator or the special it pulls? AND IF SO can I decide after I see the special (sneaky idea); Quicksilver - Avoid energy no energy against - So can no activators now be played against him? (1997-11-02)
Answer: You can use "Avoid 1 attack made with an Energy icon" to avoid an attack made with an activator. You must wait until the attack is made before doing it though, so you can't avoid it before it comes at you (after all, it may not even be an attack), so you must avoid it after it's been made against you.
As for Quicksilver's AGILE AVENGER card, that card specifically states "NO ENERGY POWER CARDS" may be played against Quicksilver. Although it contains an Energy icon, an activator is NOT an Energy Power card. nice try, though.
QuoteQuestion: Do cards that effect specific icons effect Activator cards? For instance cards that say discard all cards with a fighting icon currently held in hand. Would these cards make you discard your activators? (1997-11-02)
Answer: Yes - Activators have icons. They would be discarded if attacked as described above.
QuoteQuestion: Can Nick Fury's Dum Dum Dugan [LO] block a special card coming from the Battle site since that attack would always include an Energy Icon from the activator card? (1997-12-21)
Answer: Yes
QuoteQuestion: I was wondering what would happen if one were to draw an event that reads, "No cards with an energy icon may be used to attack this battle," could that person use an activator, that obviously has an energy icon, to play a special from a battlesite that doesn't have an energy icon? (1998-04-19)
Answer: As long as the Special is not an attack, yes. Example: I can use a Mr. Fantastic Activator to draw and play a "Draw 3 cards" Special but not to pull a "Stretch Attack" Special (acts as a level 4 FIghting attack).
That's what I was thinking. Good references, Jack 8)
I try to use 3-stat heroes for as many of my activators as possible so that if something references an intellect icon it won't affect the card. It is a small boost.
Quote from: Palatinus on June 28, 2011, 09:04:34 PM
I try to use 3-stat heroes for as many of my activators as possible so that if something references an intellect icon it won't affect the card. It is a small boost.
for sure. when i was first looking into this on the flip side, i realized that there's an Event to prevent attacking with E/F/S icons, but not Int. i've often thought about the advantage that could have been :-\
Here's one for you guys to puzzle out - According to the rules if an attack may ONLY be defended with a special card, can you use a battlesite card to stop it?
Think carefully before you answer. ;)
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on June 28, 2011, 11:52:44 PM
Here's one for you guys to puzzle out - According to the rules if an attack may ONLY be defended with a special card, can you use a battlesite card to stop it?
Think carefully before you answer. ;)
-BBH
i'm going to go ahead and say yes. i figure any defensive actions that make use of a Special card are ok, even if they involve another card. e.g., if i use an AM to gain +1 in conjunction with a Power card, then the attack was defended with a Special card. same logic would then apply to Activators.
... unless i'm wrong on both counts ???
I'm going to side with Ncan on this one. As long as a special card is included in the defense. Much in the same way you can use an EE to block a doubleshot or power card combined with a special.
I hate to say it, but meta #44:
QuoteMeta #44: When a card specifies what cards may (or may not) be used to defend it, this includes ALL cards used in the defense.
And...
QuoteMeta #124: Specials which are already in play prior to an attack being launched can be utilized in the defense of that attack without being considered "being played defensively."
Quote from: Jack on June 29, 2011, 08:30:54 AM
I hate to say it, but meta #44:
QuoteMeta #44: When a card specifies what cards may (or may not) be used to defend it, this includes ALL cards used in the defense.
And...
QuoteMeta #124: Specials which are already in play prior to an attack being launched can be utilized in the defense of that attack without being considered "being played defensively."
I understand the application of #124, and I agree. If my AM is already in play, then I don't get to consider it part of my "defended with a Special"; however, if nothing is yet in play, and you attack me with a Batman's 3I, I think it's totally legit to play Magneto's AM w/lv.1 Power card.
I'm not sure what you mean to say about rule #44, though...
I think it means if a card specifies "must be defend by a special card", the meta rule is stating that ALL cards in the defense must be special cards. So, for example, Prof X. +2 to all actions with Nightcrawler's 5M "may be used to attack or defend" to block a 7 can be done. But, Prof X. +2 with a 5 power card to block a 7 can't. Not that there are any 7's that can only be defended by specials. But I was just trying to make an example.
With #44, the Activator is played with the defensive special, so it violates the "can only be defended by a special card" clause.
Quote from: Jack on June 29, 2011, 11:41:35 AM
With #44, the Activator is played with the defensive special, so it violates the "can only be defended by a special card" clause.
I was wrong in my memory of what the BA-coded specials say.
I was under the (mistaken) impression that they had the words, "defended with" like the JW and JZ Specials, as opposed to the "defended by" words.
The difference between "with" and "by" here is vast; it makes all of the difference.
Having re-read the cards, I'm completely with Jack and the rules.
--- --- ---
Here's another, sub-question though. These BA Specials say, "defended by a defensive Special card." - singular...
Am I allowed to use more than one Special card in my defense, then?
Strictly based on the wording, the answer should be "no." If the use of the word "by" in this instance is considered to be difinitive to the point of exclusion, then using 2 Special cards would be a violation of the words, "a defensive special card." e.g., using an AC to shift the attack would be the end of your defensive options...
Quote from: ncannelora on June 29, 2011, 11:57:16 AM
I was wrong in my memory of what the BA-coded specials say.
I was under the (mistaken) impression that they had the words, "defended with" like the JW and JZ Specials, as opposed to the "defended by" words.
The difference between "with" and "by" here is vast; it makes all of the difference.
Having re-read the cards, I'm completely with Jack and the rules.
It's an interesting debate. I bet no one plays that way, despite the clear interpretation of the meta rules... though I could be wrong. In my opinion, it should be that way... after all the cards in question are OPDs, and as such should be strong. But does it make them too strong? (Although - Rapture's BA is not OPD and has two icons... ouch)
But to not adhere to the meta rule opens yet another can of worms about arbitary rules. (Already more than enough with OverPower.)
Along the same lines - going by the meta rules, if I play Soul Gem - 'Only Adam Warlock and target character may attack, be attacked or defend for the remainder of battle' can teammates play non-attack and non-defensive cards on their turn. (IE: Add to venture, or draw 3 etc.)?
The answer, as most people will agree, is no.
So, here's the next thing for you to consider - X-babies: L'il Rogue states that the opponent may not attack or defend from a Battlesite for the remainder of the battle. Can the opponent use non-attack, and non-defense cards from the site on their turn?
Think carefully again! :P
-BBH
When I get the binder by next week (or the week after!), we might know the right answer!
I got the last one wrong but I'll take a crack at this one too. I would say the answer is no. Once little Rogue is in play then the battlesite is completely shut down.
Use the QNA!
QuoteQuestion: Ok here's a couple wuestions that have baffled my tournament friends and me. If X-Babies: Lil' Rogue is played against you, can you negate it with an activator and AO special from your battlesite, or can it only be one of your front line characters that can play an AO special to negate it? (1997-11-09)
Answer: If you play an activator from a battlesite, it is like your front line character played the special. Therefore, yes, it can be negated that way. In fact, it can be negated defensively (when Lil Rogue is played) or after the fact - Lil Rogue only prevents Activators from being played as attacks and as defense - you can still use activators for offensive actions that do not affect your opponent.
QuoteQuestion: I went to a tourney 2 weeks ago and someone there said that he got a few rulings from someone. I thought they were messed up. Here's what the guy said:
X-Babies: Li'l Rogue
can be used to avoid a attack from battlesite
when it is played it cannot be negated with a negate from the battlesite (1997-12-07)
Answer: It cannot be used defensively - the specials guide states that it is offensive only. If attacked with it, it has not yet landed, therefore battlesite cards can be used to negate it. Once it lands, you can still negate it from a battlesite since negating it on your turn is not an attack or a defensive action - it is an offensive action on your turn.
QuoteQuestion: if lil' rogue is played can you still play negates? (1997-12-14)
Answer: I assume that your question is referring to negates from under the battlesite, since lil Rogue does not affect your ability to play negates from your hand. Assuming the above, all lil Rogue does is prevent you from playing cards from under the Battlesite as attacks or as defensive actions. It does not prevent you from playing Specials from the battlesite for cards which are offensive, but do not affect your opponent. For example, you can take a special card as a hit, and then on your next turn, play an activator to retrieve a negate and negate the special card that landed. Of course, then it is your opponent's turn again. However, that does not mean that you can just play any negate you want - you cannot, for example, play a negate from the battlesite defensively (i.e., on your opponent's turn in response to one of his actions) regardless as to whether or not the opponent's action was an attack or merely an offensive action. Hope I didn't lose anyone on this thread. If I did, I'm sure I'll hear about it :)
Thanks Jack!
Jack- so I play evil super soldier for a KO and my opponent has no defensive specials in hand, but has an activator that can pull either a negate or and avoid (say Longshot) from under his battlesite. He is prohibited from doing so under this Meta rule? That does not seem right to me.
Yep...
Quote from: CoS on June 30, 2011, 01:47:25 PM
Jack- so I play evil super soldier for a KO and my opponent has no defensive specials in hand, but has an activator that can pull either a negate or and avoid (say Longshot) from under his battlesite. He is prohibited from doing so under this Meta rule? That does not seem right to me.
That's the debate.
If you play according to the meta rules, it's very clear, even if no one really played that way anyway.
And that rule already applies to all other similar circumstances. I can't play a special to shift a JW attack and defend with a non special. I can't use an activator to beat an AP special. Why then would the rule be different for BA specials?
It does also enhance the power of these OPDs for those characters.
-BBH
well he is an Evil Super Soldier! ;)
My goodness! This can all get so confusing. :-\ After reading this thread many times I think I do understand now, but still shocked at the resolution of CoS's example.
So I played a match were BBHs take on this topic differs from mine. I use Soul Gem on Reavers and my opponents Iceman. He wanted to play snow blind and I said Bo that effects my team not just Reavers (but unlucky at love would have been ok) I also said that a telepathic coordination stand alone action (not as defense or attack) and a draw 3 were ok as well. He used the Ray's draw 3, again I saw no problem with it. (I locked down Reavers with pretty boy). Did Norman Barth address this Soul Gem/Cosmic Cube scenario? Were non defense non attack specials playable by the other teammates?
Quote from: CoS on July 24, 2011, 11:30:47 AM
So I played a match were BBHs take on this topic differs from mine. I use Soul Gem on Reavers and my opponents Iceman. He wanted to play snow blind and I said Bo that effects my team not just Reavers (but unlucky at love would have been ok) I also said that a telepathic coordination stand alone action (not as defense or attack) and a draw 3 were ok as well. He used the Ray's draw 3, again I saw no problem with it. (I locked down Reavers with pretty boy). Did Norman Barth address this Soul Gem/Cosmic Cube scenario? Were non defense non attack specials playable by the other teammates?
I don't know Normal Barth's take on it, but as I remember from the tournament guide - Cosmic Cube/Soul gem doesn't allow anyone to play any cards other than the two who are in play from the Cosmic Cube. So, draw 3 from another character is not acceptable. Telepathic Co-ordination is not acceptable unless it's already in play.
Snow blind would have been allowed because Iceman is still allowed to attack. A lockdown/cosmic cube combo is, of course perfectly legal and very devastating.
-BBH
but the cosmic cube/soul gem says ONLY the two target heroes can attack be attacked or defend (snowblind effects my entire tire team targeting other heroes than just the one locked into the single combat) - because of this i thought it was a no go. if it only effected the hero targeted by soul gem (say punisher vendetta) then i think it would have been ok.
Snowblind reads "Opponent's heroes are -1 to all actions for remainder of battle."
Of the character(s) you have locked in the Soul Gem/Cosmic Cube one is still one of your "opponent's heroes."
Not that it came, up in the game, but I think this is better clarification. It doesn't state oppenents team, just that all of his heroes that can be affected are.
BTW, could I have that deck breakdown? I want to wreck a buddy of mine with that little trick. Just once. lol
i say ice man can still snowblind adam warlock