I want to make sure I understand the 'dead is dead' rule as it relates to inherent abilities and specials.
X-Babies: Hits are all power cards and equal 20 points in 3 power types they are KO'd.
Grunge: Hit total is 20 points in 3 power types but no multipower he is still KO'd.
Rogue (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 20 points in 3 power types, but are all special cards she is still KO'd. (I see this the same as the X-Babies)
Ghost Rider (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 25 points in 3 power types he is not KO'd.
Morbius (with Strong Guy's CG in play): Hit total is 29 points in 3/4 power types he is not KO'd.
Deadpool (with his BF in play): Hit total is 29 with 1 multipower, 1 fighting, and 1 strength hit he is not KO'd.
Have I interpreted all these scenarios correctly?
Quote from: Nostalgic on April 03, 2011, 07:19:41 PM
I want to make sure I understand the 'dead is dead' rule as it relates to inherent abilities and specials.
X-Babies: Hits are all power cards and equal 20 points in 3 power types they are KO'd.
Grunge: Hit total is 20 points in 3 power types but no multipower he is still KO'd.
Rogue (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 20 points in 3 power types, but are all special cards she is still KO'd. (I see this the same as the X-Babies)
Ghost Rider (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 25 points in 3 power types he is not KO'd.
Morbius (with Strong Guy's CG in play): Hit total is 29 points in 3/4 power types he is not KO'd.
Deadpool (with his BF in play): Hit total is 29 with 1 multipower, 1 fighting, and 1 strength hit he is not KO'd.
Have I interpreted all these scenarios correctly?
Not entirely.
Anyone with 20 pts and 3 types is dead:
X-Babies: Hits are all power cards and equal 20 points in 3 power types they are KO'd. = YES
Grunge: Hit total is 20 points in 3 power types but no multipower he is still KO'd. = YES
Rogue (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 20 points in 3 power types, but are all special cards she is still KO'd. (I see this the same as the X-Babies) = YES
Ghost Rider (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 25 points in 3 power types he is not KO'd. = NO. He is still dead at 3 types and 20 damage.
Morbius (with Strong Guy's CG in play): Hit total is 29 points in 3/4 power types he is not KO'd. = NO. Dead at 20 pts and three types.
Deadpool (with his BF in play): Hit total is 29 with 1 multipower, 1 fighting, and 1 strength hit he is not KO'd. = NO. Dead at 20 pts and 3 types.
It doesn't matter what modifications you make or what the inherent is, any character will die at 20 damage and 3 types.
Basically, it means you have to take your hits strategically, though characters like the above give you a little more flexibility.
-BH
So you're saying 20 points and 3 power types are the 'absolute value/threshold/ratio' for KO.
The relevant rule being:
"A Character is KO'd, regardless of any Specials or Inherent Abilities, if their Hits amount to both a Cumulative and Spectrum K.O."
I thought that certain characters due to their inherent ability requiring 30 points to KO or 4 power types to spectrum KO might slightly change that KO ratio relative to those specific characters. I suppose these characters are still "strategically tougher' as you said...
Quote from: Nostalgic on April 03, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
So you're saying 20 points and 3 power types are the 'absolute value/threshold/ratio' for KO.
The relevant rule being:
"A Character is KO'd, regardless of any Specials or Inherent Abilities, if their Hits amount to both a Cumulative and Spectrum K.O."
I thought that certain characters due to their inherent ability requiring 30 points to KO or 4 power types to spectrum KO might slightly change that KO ratio relative to those specific characters. I suppose these characters are still "strategically tougher' as you said...
Pretty much. Truth be told, I like the Dead is Dead rule. It's one of the rulings they got right. Some characters are a little tougher, but you still have to watch what you take.
-BBH
Yeah, I love using Rogue for her I.A. and her shift Special. Timed well, I've used it to take several hits that would have killed some one else.
Quote from: ncannelora on April 04, 2011, 05:22:33 PM
Yeah, I love using Rogue for her I.A. and her shift Special. Timed well, I've used it to take several hits that would have killed some one else.
Her Megapower Promo Card (nigh invulnerable), combined with Rogue: Brotherhood and an image inducer is a great round winner. Absorb a bunch of high powered specials and kill the venture. ;D
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on April 05, 2011, 10:55:33 AM
Her Megapower Promo Card (nigh invulnerable), combined with Rogue: Brotherhood and an image inducer is a great round winner. Absorb a bunch of high powered specials and kill the venture. ;D
-BBH
Yeah, NIGH INVULNERABLE is very handy with her I.A., too!
I like the Dead is Dead rule as well. It makes a lot of sense and eliminates the worry about making cards later on that could have been abused. It also makes you not worry about battlesite strategy.
i dont like it
you cant just change the rules
i dont like mega negate decks either
but that doesnt mean they should be banned or anything
(http://www.overpower.ca/cards/characters/187.jpg) (http://www.overpower.ca/cards/characters/110.jpg)
(http://www.overpower.ca/cards/specials/349.jpg)(http://www.overpower.ca/cards/specials/1466.jpg) (http://www.overpower.ca/cards/specials/1338.jpg)
if you dont like those specials then negate them
where is this "dead is dead" rule anyway?
I have to side with Steve, sort of... I don't think anyone with 20 pts/3 stats should be KO'd regardless of inherants/specials in play.
I believe that if a character becomes "unkillable" THAT is the only time the "DiD" rule SHOULD apply.
IF someone actually gets both an EK and a CG on 1 character in a single game, that character now falls under "DiD" since there's NO OTHER WAY to KO him.
IF the X-babies survive long enough to push their opponent into the Power Pack, then THEY would become susceptible of "DiD," but not before.
Grunge should have just been dropped on a "Banned list" or have had his Inherant errataed, similar to how Beyonder's was errataed. As simple errata would be to add the following statement "When Grunge or teammate successfully defend Grunge from a MultiPower Power Card attack, put a counter on Grunge. Grunge is -1 to defend against MultiPower Power Cards for each counter on Grunge." Eventually 1 would get through his limited Grid and he could die like anyone else, while still being strategic to some degree. Let's not forget he also has Danger Seeker which makes him REALLY hard to hit/kill on TOP of his BROKEN Inherant. Avoidance counters would help him from being so damn hard to hit with the only card restricted to being lethal to him.
Ghost Rider's being Spectrum KO'd by only 4 types makes him a playable 20 pt character without a 7 or higher stat. Yes, he has some good specials too, but some people have a hard time looking past the lack of stats. 20 Cummulative would kill him anyways, so it's not like the DiD SHOULD technically come into play. IF he has 20 pts of cummulative damage, it shouldn't matter what stats are on him, unless of course someone dropped an EK on him, and then Kudos to them for pulling that off. Eventually you'll get one more stat to stick and he'll go down. That's part of the fun of the game.
Same with Morbius. Yeah, he can only be Cum ko'd by a 30 min, but 1, 2, and 3 in different stats can kill him just like anyone else. Sometimes it boils down to luck. It IS a card game after all, luck has to be a factor somewhere in there.
I've never been a fan of the Dead Is Dead (DiD) ruling, particularly because there are lots of ways to KO some one without it. NW-code is great for that, for example.
Also, keep in mind that DZ will defeat DANGER SEEKER and so will a negate.
I have to step in on the other side of this debate, and say that I heartily approve of the Dead Is Dead rule. It's a solid and balanced rule that doesn't permit abuse.
I'm against banning cards. So answering the problem of an overly powerful card by simply saying 'get rid of it' just means someone hasn't tried hard enough to strategize against it. Grunge, in this case, is still a pain in the ass but is nothing compared to what he was before Dead is Dead. I had a guy yell and swear at me in a tournament for using Grunge and being 'cheap' by absorbing every single hit except multi power hits. By the end of the game, there was 95 points of damage in Grunge's record and many of his power cards. Clearly an imbalanced and unfair situation. I guarantee you, while you'll likely enjoy using that tactic against others, having the shoe on the other foot and having it done to you won't be nearly as amusing.
Dead is Dead solves the problem of unkillable characters in a fair and broad way that affects all players. A smart player will still be able to capitalize on a character's toughness by taking strategic hits. Likewise, it allows persistent players to overcome buffed characters with a little focus.
Also, the rule is simple and clear. It doesn't require a hundred meta rules to reference and understand it.
In a game where many of the rulings were retarded and illogical, the Dead is Dead rule was one they got 100% right.
-BBH
I just don't think it should apply to everyone. If a character is KO'able through a little strategy, he shouldn't fall under DiD. He should only be DiD if he can't be killed any other way. That's all I was getting at. I still think Grunge is a rough character, but MANY of my opponents have killed my Grunge due to a lucky shot when the only defense left in my hand was a 7 or higher. No matter which Multi hit was comming at him, he wasn't blocking it with that. If your opponent couldn't get a shot through, well, that's kinda his problem... Not saying he shouldn't be allowed to complain, but like you said, a little strategy might have gotten past that little problem, instead of letting his deck get absoarbed into Grunge's permanent record. Maybe I'm just a bad player that I would have a character like Grunge with cards that he can't use specifically, but it still makes him killable.
Quote from: Demacus on October 04, 2011, 05:31:25 PM
I just don't think it should apply to everyone.
This is one of the major issues that Overpower has - too many specific rulings. ALL rules should apply to everyone. The only things that should override the rules are the cards themselves.
Overpower was plagued with too many rules that apply to some cards but not to others. Just look at the duration rule for the prime example of that.
"If a special does not indicate a duration and is OPD, it is considered remainder of game. If a special does not indicate a duration and is non-OPD, then it is considered battle lasting only."
As a blanket rule, it's brilliant! So many cards become more usable. And its a simple, clear rule.
But then, as you learn, it is not a blanket rule. It doesn't apply to every card. Other, individual rulings override it. Almost to the point that there's no use in having it.
Once you start making specific alterations to broad rules, things get needlessly complicated. Whether or not you agree with Dead is Dead (I know a lot of people don't) itself, the great thing about it is that there is no override for it. It's clear, simple, applicable to EVERYTHING, and that makes it balanced. Add to the fact that it takes away the possibility of truly unfair strategies.
The thing I don't like about Dead is Dead is the stupid name! ugh. What a dumb name for a rule. :o
-BBH
I follow what you are saying. What I'm saying is that DiD should only apply to character who have become invinsible through some other game mechanics... To put Deadpool on par with X-babies and Grunge is kinda rediculous. The blanket rule is fine, if it's worded that "Characters who WOULD NOT BE KO'able OTHERWISE are KO'd at 20/3." Yeah, DP is harder to kill with his Inherant+High Threshold combo, but I would hardly put that on the same level as having Grunge soak up 95 pts of Dmg and not dying due to no MultiPower hit. That's all I'm saying. It's a great rule, just not as it's currently worded. My 2 cents.
I personally just think that, as the game progressed, there were more and more ways to kill people, regardless of Specials in play and Inherent Abilities. I'd much rather see that developed than have a rule like DiD. It's similar to how I feel about DoW. I know they were trying to create balance vs. Battlesites, I just feel like they did it wrong. :-\
I've been on both sides of this (my brother uses DANGER SEEKER from a Battlesite to good effect, I've used Angel's AERIAL COMBAT from a battlesite to good effect), so I do appreciate it for what it is, but I also see it as a little obnoxious. Forums are a good place to gripe ;D
DoW i can handle
is there an actual rule about this?
what is the exact wording?
From: http://overpower.ca/archive/ripayuheadoff2/part7.html
Quote from: Dead is DeadFor every character, regardless of Inherent Abilities or cards in play, if that character has meet the requirements for both a Cumulative and a Spectrum KO, then that character has been KO'd.
--
Though, there are two interpretations about what is "Dead is Dead", the above is the one that people refer to, but:
http://overpower.ca/archive/wildchild/oprule-dead.html
interesting
from the link
'If he is, then the opponent is considered to have reneged, because when he plays an attack for the kill, he must say so.'
is this actually a rule? never heard about that
also, the first quote never says anything about 20points/3icons. does this help deadpool? 30points/3icons (and still no multi)
EDIT: never mind...i guess that still wouldn't address xbabies or pile it on/android endurance. 20points/3icons is it then
I still personally think that Dead is Dead should only apply to characters who can't die any other way, instead of across the board, but yeah, 20points/3icon seems to be the standard... Like your Deadpool example.
Bumping him from 20 to 30 points doesn't make him immortal, just needs to suck 10 more points from my opponent UNLESS he happend to spectrum him in there somewhere, (assuming there was no Pile it On played on Deadpool via the Battlesite or some other way,) but even then, he can still die, you just have to work harder at it.
1 X-Babies who lived long enough to be in his opponents power pack is NOW IMMORTAL and would be susceptable to the DiD rule, which would take effect and kill them as soon as both 20 and 3 were established after the opponent has NO WAY of hitting them with SPECIALS, UNIVERSE, or TACTIC cards that would legally kill them without ignoring their Inherant.
But call me a purist. In EVERY other card game, anything WRITTEN ON the card takes precidence over any WRITTEN RULE about how the game is played. Now if they want to errata the DiD rule to being in effect for any of those problem characters, I would have no argument against it, but as it currently stands, it simply should not apply to any character who CAN BE KILLED, even if killing that character is more difficult then normal.
i still hate it
only some one who sucks would like that rule
i suck
and i still hate it
Quote from: steve2275 on February 25, 2012, 08:07:48 AM
i still hate it
only some one who sucks would like that rule
i suck
and i still hate it
I guess I suck, because I love the rule. It's the ONE good change they made. It's simple, clear, and fair. Something that's often lacking in this game.
;)
-BBH
Quote
I guess I suck, because I love the rule. It's the ONE good change they made. It's simple, clear, and fair. Something that's often lacking in this game.
;)
-BBH
You are not alone, I like that rule too. It worths a 100 posts... hey, actually that's my 100th post!
I think when you start seeing the same characters in decks, over and over, you have a problem. I played at the NY Regional at Neutral Ground in 1998 and Marauders to X-Babies was the theme.
I personally never saw decks that included Vision, Strong Guy, Morbius, or Deadpool. I kinda think limiting those, in my opinion already weaker characters, because the X-Babies became a premier deck, is very stupid.
Quote from: DiceK on February 27, 2012, 09:09:41 AM
... I kinda think limiting those, in my opinion already weaker characters, because the X-Babies became a premier deck, is very stupid.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. I understand wanting to limit the Marauders to X-Babies, but I think they went about it wrong. They created a rule instead of just making other Characters or Specials to counter that strategy (like Deathlok's card from The MARVELS).
When you guys have your overpower meet-ups... What rules do you play by? Is DiD used?
How close to the Original Rules do you guys play?
When my group plays we use normal rules with 3 minor exceptions.
1) When AJ-Specials are played, you may draw 1 card.
- It was a house rule idea I came up with to give Spider-Man, Batman, and Nightwing more playability and the idea stuck.
2 )When playing a multi-power, the attacker doesn't declare the power-type, so the defender is open to defend it however they can.
- This wasn't so much a house rule, as it was leaving things the way we learned it. We had no idea you could "declare" the power type upon attacking to avert a specific defense.
3) During the Draw Phase, if you have a duplicate Power Card or Universe Card, you can place the duplicate to the Reserve instead of discarding (assuming the Reserve can handle it).
- This is like the power-type above. We learned it the wrong way, but decided we liked it this way, so we leave it.
All of these are pretty minor, and actually don't come up that often anyway. I don't think any of it is game breaking, but it's slight variation we use. Plus we use some home made cards (particularly our own DCIII)
We play official rules most of the time, unless someone wants to play by the house rules, if they've made up some decks they want to test or play around with.
It also usually stays pretty close to the exact official rules, sure, we could possibly renag on one thing or two, but it's just for fun, not a tournament setting.
DiD is certainly played, although I haven't come up against it too often. Just kill them the old fashioned way, with the event ;)
Quote from: DiceK on February 27, 2012, 01:20:33 PM
When you guys have your overpower meet-ups... What rules do you play by? Is DiD used?
How close to the Original Rules do you guys play?
Our meetups in Toronto generally use official rules. I have a set a of house rules that are sometimes used by a few, but mostly it's official. DiD included.
We did one tournament last year using my house system, to reasonable success. Every other tournament we ran was using official rules. In both cases we allowed the 'Marvels' cards.
-BBH
Here's a hypothetical:
1. Get rid of DiD
2. Include the use of Marvels
Are X-Babies Decks still going to Dominate in any way shape or form? Obviously, Vertigo needs to be played offensively.
Quote from: DiceK on February 27, 2012, 04:20:59 PM
Here's a hypothetical:
1. Get rid of DiD
2. Include the use of Marvels
Are X-Babies Decks still going to Dominate in any way shape or form? Obviously, Vertigo needs to be played offensively.
I simply don't think so. Honestly, as obnoxious as it is to have X-Babies absorbing your Power Pack, it still seems like the focus should then be on winning Venture anyway. Who cares if they live forever if you can win Venture before ever getting to the Power Pack?
Quote from: ncannelora on February 27, 2012, 04:35:10 PM
Quote from: DiceK on February 27, 2012, 04:20:59 PM
Here's a hypothetical:
1. Get rid of DiD
2. Include the use of Marvels
Are X-Babies Decks still going to Dominate in any way shape or form? Obviously, Vertigo needs to be played offensively.
I simply don't think so. Honestly, as obnoxious as it is to have X-Babies absorbing your Power Pack, it still seems like the focus should then be on winning Venture anyway. Who cares if they live forever if you can win Venture before ever getting to the Power Pack?
These are pretty valid points, and honestly, if you are terrified of "unkillable due to I.A." there are characters with specials that knock off I.A.'s for a battle. Start using those. DiD might have been necessary back in the day, but characters were created with checks so that they could be killed. If you don't bring one to the party these days, you are kinda asking to deal with unkillable babies or Grunge.
I think DiD really limits your ability to make decks w/ certain characters. Take the Location "Ship" for example. Hit's to KO goes to 25. What's the point of ever wanting to play a team on that Location?
Quote from: DiceK on February 27, 2012, 06:58:42 PM
I think DiD really limits your ability to make decks w/ certain characters. Take the Location "Ship" for example. Hit's to KO goes to 25. What's the point of ever wanting to play a team on that Location?
DiD has zero effect on Ship - unless you planned to add a spectrum resistant special to a battlesite.
DiD only applies when BOTH conditions have been met. Using Ship as an example - a spectrum KO will kill any of those characters regardless of their cumulative value.
Likewise with Morbius who can only be KO'd with 30. A normal spectrum kills him in any case.
Deadpool suffers only slightly, if you use his High Threshold of Pain. Suddenly two icons and more than 20 points of cumulative means a multipower power card WILL spectrum KO him. But he's still immune to multies if he's below 20 pts.
Really, the DiD only comes up with the X-babies, Grunge, and situations where people try and make a character completely unkillable via special card combinations.
It's a balanced and fair rule that does not really limit any deck, except those trying to create an unfair exploit.
As for the unkillable babies - it's extremely frustrating. With stat boosting artifacts, an unkillable X-babies can be a little too much. They are already a key staple in so many decks, the last thing we need is yet another incentive to include them. The DiD rule curbs that quite nicely.
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 27, 2012, 07:40:23 PM
... As for the unkillable babies - it's extremely frustrating. With stat boosting artifacts, an unkillable X-babies can be a little too much. They are already a key staple in so many decks, the last thing we need is yet another incentive to include them. The DiD rule curbs that quite nicely.
-BBH
I suppose this is true and it's another case where I don't see it because of my circle. We really don't use X-Babies that often.
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 27, 2012, 07:40:23 PM
As for the unkillable babies - it's extremely frustrating. With stat boosting artifacts, an unkillable X-babies can be a little too much. They are already a key staple in so many decks, the last thing we need is yet another incentive to include them. The DiD rule curbs that quite nicely.
-BBH
This right here is kind of my point. If there is a problem with 1 character, errata that character. A blanket rule that affects everyone is not usually the right call in these instances. Yes, Grunge is also guilty and anyone who happens to both benefit from Android Endurance and Pile It On at the same time, but these are 4 instances where there is an unkillable character and I feel that DiD should only be applied in that precise instance. If I had been an official of this game back then, I would have pushed hard to simply ban the unkillable characters from pro-tournaments and simply leave them out there as fun characters for those who just want to play with them. If I recall, but I might have been misinformed on this since I never did play pro-circut, Beyonder was not always legal at tournaments.
I know I won't change your mind on this ruling, but you kind of made the point I've been driving at for this thread for me.
Quote from: Demacus on February 29, 2012, 06:48:24 PM
This right here is kind of my point. If there is a problem with 1 character, errata that character. A blanket rule that affects everyone is not usually the right call in these instances. Yes, Grunge is also guilty and anyone who happens to both benefit from Android Endurance and Pile It On at the same time, but these are 4 instances where there is an unkillable character and I feel that DiD should only be applied in that precise instance. If I had been an official of this game back then, I would have pushed hard to simply ban the unkillable characters from pro-tournaments and simply leave them out there as fun characters for those who just want to play with them. If I recall, but I might have been misinformed on this since I never did play pro-circut, Beyonder was not always legal at tournaments.
I know I won't change your mind on this ruling, but you kind of made the point I've been driving at for this thread for me.
Part of the problem with the game is that there are too many specific errata that only apply to a handful of cards, far too many. It began to bog things down. Ever try teaching a new player the game? It's a pain in the ass.
New Player: "I play this card."
OP Teacher: "Oh, um... sorry that card actually does THIS..."
New Player: "But that's not what it says..."
OP Teacher: "Yeah, they made an errata."
Sinple, blanket rules are easier to utilize and remember. Unfortunately the game is also plagued with 'so-called' blanket rules that aren't really blanket rules. The Duration rule is the perfect example:
"Any card with no printed duration is considered to be A) 'Game lasting' if OPD or B) Battle lasting if non-OPD."
That's a great rule! When I first heard that, I thought that was the most brilliant new rule they could implement. It affected so many cards and made them playable! Brood: Brood Spawn and Aquaman: Allies from the deep became more useful. Sabretooth: Blood hunt now gave Sabretooth the ability to make free attacks every time the opponent conceded... Carnage got the same thing too. Omega Red's Carbonadium synthesizer now became a game lasting special... there's more but you get the idea.
THEN, I found out that it didn't apply to those cards. It only applied to a select few cards. In fact, it applied to so few cards, they might as well have made it a card specific errata. It was brought in to curb the use of Social Outcast and Twisted Mentality, so that Mole Man and Leader decks wouldn't become the norm. People in my circles were using those guys because of those cards.
The fact that DiD is pretty much the only blanket rule that cannot be altered is one of the reasons it's such a good rule.
Banning cards is highly uneccesary and less appealing than a blanket rule that balances the overall game. I don't want the X-babies or Grunge removed, both bring great strategic options to the table. But creating a fair rule that curbed the abuse solved the problem perfectly. It didn't remove them from circulation, but neither does it create unfair situations.
Also remember, the rule wasn't made from the point of view that the game was going to die. The rule was made from the point of view that there were going to be many more sets of new cards, with an unpredictable variety of new options. Establishing such a rule automatically prevented any further abuse on that level.
Making the 'unkillable' character through specials or whatnot is an interesting strategy (3 stat Magneto with Asteroid M as a homebase and Android endurance from a site, for example. Try that and throw in some image inducers, see how much fun that is for an opponent.), and generally my view is the more strategic options, the better. So yes, DiD does remove one possible strategy which is a little unfortunate. But the level of fairness it brings in to the overall balance of the game is well worth it. And that's really the issue at hand. Overall game balance. They made so many rules, and produced so many cards that totally killed that balance, that it was nice to see one that stepped back in the right direction.
On another topic - are you ever online anymore? It seems a few people are inquiring about OPO again, might be nice to get our online gaming community going again...
-BBH
I will concede the arguement to you BBH, but I still don't like it. lol As far as my play availability, things at work have been haywire for a while and my schedule is still chaotic, as I don't know more then 2-3 days in advance if I will be working a certain day or certain time. We had a manager and his assistance just kind of walk out and since then the district manager has been working to fill the vacuum their departure created while I have been chosen to fill the vacuum left by the D.M.'s solution to the vacuum at the one store. lol Long story short, I'm an assistant manager without a home store, but report to any of 3 different stores, as needed. As soon as I have a set schedule again, I'll start popping back onto MSN.