the ones that you play in front of your character, and must be attacked before you can.
do they get discarded after battle, or do they stay until attacked?
Battle.
Cards that
are not OPD that have a lasting effect are discarded at the end of battle, unless otherwise specified.
Cards that
are OPD that have a lasting effect are considered "remainder of game", unless otherwise specified (exception is Maverick's BG, which should be "remainder of battle").
Or, officially stated in meta:
Quote from: Meta Rule #145Specials that do not indicate their duration by their game text should be considered Game lasting duration if they are One Per Deck and Battle lasting duration if they are non-OPD. Specials with instant effects are instant duration regardless.
i believe EB cards (example Brood Spawn) are discarded after they are hit once. other coded cards with similar but different wording have different effects.
I knew about that meta-rule but for some reason never considered it's application to EBs. Suddenly EBs are no where near as good or even playable as I thought. Major bummer.
In a sane world it would never be applied to an EB special . . .
Quote from: The Dude on August 18, 2010, 12:13:54 AM
In a sane world it would never be applied to an EB special . . .
True - but this is conclusive proof that the maker of OP were not sane. :P
-BBH
So is it just me or are EBs not even really playable than? It's hard for me to see ever putting them in my decks again.
Quote from: Karmanal of Zert on August 19, 2010, 07:13:08 PM
So is it just me or are EBs not even really playable than? It's hard for me to see ever putting them in my decks again.
It certainly reduces their usability significantly.
-BBH
In what sort of instance would you put them in a deck, BBH?
Quote from: Karmanal of Zert on August 20, 2010, 12:16:51 PM
In what sort of instance would you put them in a deck, BBH?
I might use one in a battlesite, to play in front of a charcter I know will be targeted for whatever reason (teammate avoids, lots of assault etc.) It usually pushes the attacks away, unless the opponent REALLY want to kill that character.
Likewise, if I am using a character with those cards I might play one if I think he'll be targeted. Of course, there aren't many, are there?
-BBH
The only ones that come to mind are Brood, Aquaman, and Darkseid. I used to think EBs were better than old-fashioned "Avoid 1 attack"s because once you played them they no longer counted as a placed a card. Now it seems "Avoid 1 attack"s have the clear advantage because even though they have to be placed (depending on how risky you want to get), you're guaranteed they'll at least do something for you. Contrarily, you could be saving an EB forever and then once you decide to play it, your opponent could simply attack someone else for the remainder of that battle, meaning you totally wasted not just a card but one card per battle as long as the EB was placed for absolutely no positive effect. I suppose they're still useful as a desperation maneuver for keeping needed characters alive, but their effect as far as negating your opponent's attacks seems almost null since all your opponent has to do is wait for the next battle to resume attacking that character and the EB will be gone. Maybe one under a battle-site would be better so it'd be there just in case you need it and for anyone, but it's hard to see myself ever using so much as one in my decks after this discussion.
Quote from: Karmanal of Zert on August 20, 2010, 01:23:16 PM
The only ones that come to mind are Brood, Aquaman, and Darkseid. I used to think EBs were better than old-fashioned "Avoid 1 attack"s because once you played them they no longer counted as a placed a card. Now it seems "Avoid 1 attack"s have the clear advantage because even though they have to be placed (depending on how risky you want to get), you're guaranteed they'll at least do something for you. Contrarily, you could be saving an EB forever and then once you decide to play it, your opponent could simply attack someone else for the remainder of that battle, meaning you totally wasted not just a card but one card per battle as long as the EB was placed for absolutely no positive effect. I suppose they're still useful as a desperation maneuver for keeping needed characters alive, but their effect as far as negating your opponent's attacks seems almost null since all your opponent has to do is wait for the next battle to resume attacking that character and the EB will be gone. Maybe one under a battle-site would be better so it'd be there just in case you need it and for anyone, but it's hard to see myself ever using so much as one in my decks after this discussion.
Silver Sable has one as well. Multiple Man and Taskmaster have one that specifically states remainder of battle but that also lets you shift or take the hit as necessary. (Not all that useful either, depending on the circumstance.)
Concrete Jungle is a worthy battlesite, so I would consider putting Sable's EB into that site, but as for putting them in a deck, not likely.
Of course, there's nothing stopping you from adjusting all this in a house rule, if you don't mind straying from the official rules. God knows I do. ;)
-BBH
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:26:28 PM
Here's something to chew on, and a strong argument that EB and KC specials remain for the remainder of the game (despite what the rules might say):
If you were to adhere to the meta rules, specifically the rule regarding duration, then EB and some KC (among others) specials only last the battle as they are not One-per-deck and have no printed duration.
Okay, but then we get to the question of BR specials. Which state that: (character) may have 1 additional card placed to them until (character) is KO'd.
These cards are ALL non-OPD. Therefore according to the Metas, all BR cards only last the battle. Despite the text that clearly states 'until (character) is KO'd. Of course, if this card only lasts one battle, you would never get to benefit from the effect, as you'd have to discard it at the end of the battle.
So I guess there's a choice - let EB and KC cards stand as printed, or officially make yet another card absolutely useless.
Anyone wonder why I want to burn the meta rules? ;)
-BBH
KC specials does have a duration, just not in the form of "remainder of battle/game", but instead the duration is actually stated as "until <character> is KO'd or cannot be attacked".
Which mean there is no preset duration as a character can be KO'd in the current battle, the following battle, etc. Same goes for BR specials.
The 2nd part of the condition prevents a player from abusing playing 'Charm' or similar special to create a lockout situation used in those bet 7 decks.
EB specials however, only last for the battle because of the meta and the inherent of Aquaman/Brood. This is the only reason I see, that lead to this decision.
If the special lasted until it was hit, then imagine creating a team with Aquaman/Brood/Marauders/Post, stacking EB (since the inherent allow to keep dupes), and vertigo accordingly so that no hits will land. Post plays 'Opponent -2 to Venture total for this battle. May be played from Reserve.' specials for the venture win.
So in order to save EB specials, I would suggest disabling Aquaman/Brood inherent. This prevents stacking, but play with the original intended duration of lasting until attacked.
bamf!
Quote from: bamf! on August 20, 2010, 07:49:34 PM
KC specials does have a duration, just not in the form of "remainder of battle/game", but instead the duration is actually stated as "until <character> is KO'd or cannot be attacked".
Which mean there is no preset duration as a character can be KO'd in the current battle, the following battle, etc. Same goes for BR specials.
The 2nd part of the condition prevents a player from abusing playing 'Charm' or similar special to create a lockout situation used in those bet 7 decks.
EB specials however, only last for the battle because of the meta and the inherent of Aquaman/Brood. This is the only reason I see, that lead to this decision.
If the special lasted until it was hit, then imagine creating a team with Aquaman/Brood/Marauders/Post, stacking EB (since the inherent allow to keep dupes), and vertigo accordingly so that no hits will land. Post plays 'Opponent -2 to Venture total for this battle. May be played from Reserve.' specials for the venture win.
So in order to save EB specials, I would suggest disabling Aquaman/Brood inherent. This prevents stacking, but play with the original intended duration of lasting until attacked.
bamf!
It was officially ruled that KC cards fell under the duration meta rule. The printed duration of 'until the character is KO'd or cannot be attacked' didn't qualify as a duration. So, only Grunge's 'Danger seeker' was game lasting. The mole man and Leader KC cards were battle lasting only. Personally, I think that's absolute crap, but that was what they decided officially.
As for EB specials - it's not broken for them to last the game. The strategy you mention is extremely unlikely - if you can pull it off, my hat's off to you. Remember the shift rule - shifted attacks cannot be defended by cards already in play. So you can't shift an attack to the EB special. They get shifted 'behind' the special. The only way for an EB special to work is if the opponent directly targets the character it's played in front of.
As for using Brood and Aquaman and keeping duplicates. You'd be screwed if you had too many multiples in the same round, unless it was early. While you build your wall in front of those characters, I target your third character. Odds are you won't have enough defense to hold off for long. The most you can do is fend off as much as you can while you build your wall and concede when that's done.
Aquaman and Brood's inherents are not broken, and the only way to make EB cards truly playable is to keep them as written so they last the remainder of the game.
-BBH
I completely forgot about that shift ruling; then the above team combo is very difficult to pull off.
The disabling of the inherent was suggested without the shift ruling in mind, but with it I agree with you that doing so would make aquaman/brood more unplayable.
Sad to see the KC (non-OPD) got dragged in that as well, I guess the duration=depends has no meaning beside referring to that fact that the special's effect can end before the battle has ended, instead of meaning an unknown length of time.
However, BR special is listed as duration=game, interesting to see that they were trying to fix something they broke. Going by this, I view the KC special's duration=depends as something that last an unknown length of time.
It has become very clear to me that the meta (non-opd=battle, opd=game; etc.) was ruled in because they wanted to fix a certain card. It was easier and faster to generalize the ruling to affect all playable cards than it was to go through each one. It might have broke some cards, but it resolved the initial problem they set out to solve. Furthermore, given how they were competing with mtg and others, they needed a quick fix in order to maintain the player-base, little did they know, doing so ultimately lead to their downfall. [These are my thoughts of what happened, if someone working on OP at that time is reading this, please share your story.]
bamf!
Quote from: bamf! on August 21, 2010, 01:11:49 PM
I completely forgot about that shift ruling; then the above team combo is very difficult to pull off.
The disabling of the inherent was suggested without the shift ruling in mind, but with it I agree with you that doing so would make aquaman/brood more unplayable.
Sad to see the KC (non-OPD) got dragged in that as well, I guess the duration=depends has no meaning beside referring to that fact that the special's effect can end before the battle has ended, instead of meaning an unknown length of time.
However, BR special is listed as duration=game, interesting to see that they were trying to fix something they broke. Going by this, I view the KC special's duration=depends as something that last an unknown length of time.
It has become very clear to me that the meta (non-opd=battle, opd=game; etc.) was ruled in because they wanted to fix a certain card. It was easier and faster to generalize the ruling to affect all playable cards than it was to go through each one. It might have broke some cards, but it resolved the initial problem they set out to solve. Furthermore, given how they were competing with mtg and others, they needed a quick fix in order to maintain the player-base, little did they know, doing so ultimately lead to their downfall. [These are my thoughts of what happened, if someone working on OP at that time is reading this, please share your story.]
bamf!
Which is why I prefer to play without the meta rules. The game officials at the time had a bad habit of making rulings to limit a certain strategy rather than broaden the # of strategies available. It became about limiting cards rather than expanding options. The more varied the options, the harder it becomes to rely on any given strategy.
FREEDOM!!! :P
-BBH
QuoteThe game officials at the time had a bad habit of making rulings to limit a certain strategy rather than broaden the # of strategies available.
.
Sadly i think this statement completely sums up the attitude of the-power-that-were for much of Overpower's official life.
BTW - I love your example of the BR specials, I wonder if the powers-that-were were ever presented with that example of the obvious of fallacy of the meta-rule in question.
Anyway on this topic I say to everyone that there is absolutely no reason in the world not to play EB and KC specials as written. The meta-rules had their uses at times, but primarily they existed so that people knew what to expect in tournament play and tournaments had to comply with them to recieve prize support from the power-that-were. Seeing as those powers ceased to exist over a decade ago, and thus even in the highly unlikely event there were some sort of public overpower tournament again there would certainly be no prize support from said powers; there is thus no reason on the planet to stick with short-sighted rulings that make less cards playable for characters who were never broken to begin with. Play the text on the cards as written, you'll be a lot happier.
Quote from: The Dude on August 22, 2010, 07:28:07 PM
Anyway on this topic I say to everyone that there is absolutely no reason in the world not to play EB and KC specials as written. The meta-rules had their uses at times, but primarily they existed so that people knew what to expect in tournament play and tournaments had to comply with them to recieve prize support from the power-that-were. Seeing as those powers ceased to exist over a decade ago, and thus even in the highly unlikely event there were some sort of public overpower tournament again there would certainly be no prize support from said powers; there is thus no reason on the planet to stick with short-sighted rulings that make less cards playable for characters who were never broken to begin with. Play the text on the cards as written, you'll be a lot happier.
Oh, I do. But that's in my own circles. When playing new people, who aren't familiar or appreciative of one's house rules, it's best to go with official rules.
I think everyone on this board has their own set of house rules. It's interesting seeing what people have come up with to make the game more fun for themselves.
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on August 20, 2010, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: Karmanal of Zert on August 20, 2010, 01:23:16 PM
The only ones that come to mind are Brood, Aquaman, and Darkseid. I used to think EBs were better than old-fashioned "Avoid 1 attack"s because once you played them they no longer counted as a placed a card. Now it seems "Avoid 1 attack"s have the clear advantage because even though they have to be placed (depending on how risky you want to get), you're guaranteed they'll at least do something for you. Contrarily, you could be saving an EB forever and then once you decide to play it, your opponent could simply attack someone else for the remainder of that battle, meaning you totally wasted not just a card but one card per battle as long as the EB was placed for absolutely no positive effect. I suppose they're still useful as a desperation maneuver for keeping needed characters alive, but their effect as far as negating your opponent's attacks seems almost null since all your opponent has to do is wait for the next battle to resume attacking that character and the EB will be gone. Maybe one under a battle-site would be better so it'd be there just in case you need it and for anyone, but it's hard to see myself ever using so much as one in my decks after this discussion.
Silver Sable has one as well. Multiple Man and Taskmaster have one that specifically states remainder of battle but that also lets you shift or take the hit as necessary. (Not all that useful either, depending on the circumstance.)
Concrete Jungle is a worthy battlesite, so I would consider putting Sable's EB into that site, but as for putting them in a deck, not likely.
Of course, there's nothing stopping you from adjusting all this in a house rule, if you don't mind straying from the official rules. God knows I do. ;)
-BBH
If you count the Marvels set, multiple man got a second EB "Take the hit" which could be used to defend anyone on the team from an attack with a power card for remainder of game. Captain Britain also got an EB that defended the team from a special card for remainder of game. Since these aren't OPDs I made a pretty good team using multiple man with several of those cards which really created a wall of defense that was hard to break for my opponent during a critical battle.
Those Marvels' EBs are tremendous. Captain Britain in particular is a really strong character now. Of course if these Marvels heroes can have teamwide non-opd EBS (albeit limited to 1 type of avoid) with a choice of when to use it, it just adds fuel to the no reason in the universe Aquaman/Brood can't have single hero EBs that block the first hit thrown at them without a choice also last the entire game.
Yeah, the Marvel's EB cards rock. All of them. And for the record, I have always lobbied that the original EB coded cards be played for remainder of game (and in fact did play them that way until someone informed me that I was mistaken).
-BBH
1) I think the EBs were intended to remain until they were actually attacked. Otherwise, there is no reason for Aquaman and Brood to have the IAs they do. I also think, like most that posted here, that it can't really be exploited, but it makes a few characters more useful.
-
2) As for the KC argument, I disagree with the lines of thinking that have been posted. I think the KC only lasts a single battle (even Grunge's) because I think that's defined within the card text.
-
"...until <character> is K.O.'d or cannot be attacked."
-
I think that means at the end of the battle, the KC-character cannot be attacked anymore (since you have no more cards to play) and the card is therefore discarded. Thoughts?
Quote from: ncannelora on December 02, 2010, 01:49:05 PM
2) As for the KC argument, I disagree with the lines of thinking that have been posted. I think the KC only lasts a single battle (even Grunge's) because I think that's defined within the card text.
-
"...until <character> is K.O.'d or cannot be attacked."
-
I think that means at the end of the battle, the KC-character cannot be attacked anymore (since you have no more cards to play) and the card is therefore discarded. Thoughts?
It's a fair argument, but the official rule was to go with the duration meta rule. OPD = remainder of game, non-OPD = remainder of battle.
That's why under official rules Grunge's Danger Seeker is a remainder of Game special, while Mole Man and Leader got the shaft. (Because, you know, Grunge's inherent ability is SO shitty, they needed to boost him somehow! :P)
How a card that states '...until <specific event occurs>' is not counted as a duration boggles the mind... but that's another debate. ;)
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on December 02, 2010, 02:58:13 PM
(Because, you know, Grunge's inherent ability is SO shitty, they needed to boost him somehow! :P)
-BBH
Speaking of which, I've heard of a "Dead is Dead" rule that if a person has enough hits to qualify for both Cumulative and Spectrum K.O., they die regardless of Inherent Ability. I haven't found this in the Meta Rules, though. Do you know if this was enforced in tournaments?
Speaking of which, I've heard of a "Dead is Dead" rule that if a person has enough hits to qualify for both Cumulative and Spectrum K.O., they die regardless of Inherent Ability. I haven't found this in the Meta Rules, though. Do you know if this was enforced in tournaments?
[/quote]
Yes, that's also an official rule.
-BBH
Speaking of EB cards, does the hit used to remove the card count toward venture?
Quote from: Palatinus on March 28, 2011, 08:38:33 AM
Speaking of EB cards, does the hit used to remove the card count toward venture?
No, that's what keeps the shields useful. The hit does
not count for Venture. The only shield-type card that can take a hit that
will count for Venture is the Krakoa ASPECT card, but that card specifies that the hit will count toward Venture:
QuoteAttack made on any of Krakoa's Front Line Characters is now made on
Krakoa. Krakoa may not defend or be KO'd. Hit counts toward Venture
Total.
That makes sense. Is there any specific rule that spells that out though? Like, does it say that only hits on heroes count towards venture? I don't remember if the part about hits on battlesites don't count for venture is just stated in rules for battlesites or if it gives a general ruling there.
Quote from: Palatinus on March 28, 2011, 02:20:45 PM
That makes sense. Is there any specific rule that spells that out though? Like, does it say that only hits on heroes count towards venture? I don't remember if the part about hits on battlesites don't count for venture is just stated in rules for battlesites or if it gives a general ruling there.
Yes. Meta rule #113 covers it.
The rule about Battlesites is covered in the rulebook. Hits on the site don't count to venture. (Except in specific circumstances)
-BBH
Quote from: ncannelora on March 28, 2011, 12:27:19 PM
Quote from: Palatinus on March 28, 2011, 08:38:33 AM
Speaking of EB cards, does the hit used to remove the card count toward venture?
No, that's what keeps the shields useful. The hit does not count for Venture. The only shield-type card that can take a hit that will count for Venture is the Krakoa ASPECT card, but that card specifies that the hit will count toward Venture:
This is true.
What's weird is I was reading the OP online rules about buffer cards under the topic "How do I?" and it said, "Any hits on buffer cards will not appear in front of the selected character (in order to distinguish them from that character's Hits to Current Battle). Rather, hits on buffer cards will appear above the Mission piles, so that they can be considered in the Venture totals."
I don't know why that was added, perhaps just for krakoa, but something to keep in mind when playing online.
Quote from: Nostalgic on March 28, 2011, 06:18:45 PM
Quote from: ncannelora on March 28, 2011, 12:27:19 PM
Quote from: Palatinus on March 28, 2011, 08:38:33 AM
Speaking of EB cards, does the hit used to remove the card count toward venture?
No, that's what keeps the shields useful. The hit does not count for Venture. The only shield-type card that can take a hit that will count for Venture is the Krakoa ASPECT card, but that card specifies that the hit will count toward Venture:
This is true.
What's weird is I was reading the OP online rules about buffer cards under the topic "How do I?" and it said, "Any hits on buffer cards will not appear in front of the selected character (in order to distinguish them from that character's Hits to Current Battle). Rather, hits on buffer cards will appear above the Mission piles, so that they can be considered in the Venture totals."
I don't know why that was added, perhaps just for krakoa, but something to keep in mind when playing online.
hmm. I always just moved the hit to the actual Home Base... it says it lands on Krakoa, so I figured that it would land and just stay there...
Where the hit winds up could be pretty significant. If it stays on Krakoa instead of going to the dead pile at the end of battle it would not be retrievable later.
I always figured that to be a bonus of THE LIVING ISLAND! ;D
It makes sense to me too that the hit would stay on Krakoa.
Yeah like, "Oh, I'm sorry! Please forgive my plant, he swallows Level 8 Energy Power cards. I meant to warn you about that... Sorry." :D
I'd like to think that if Overpower had continued and they came out with more aspect cards that Krakoa would have gotten a nice heavy attack of its own. Maybe a 10 Anypower, probably with some drawback for your team when played.
Quote from: Palatinus on March 29, 2011, 02:17:04 PM
I'd like to think that if Overpower had continued and they came out with more aspect cards that Krakoa would have gotten a nice heavy attack of its own. Maybe a 10 Anypower, probably with some drawback for your team when played.
Yeah, it would have been cool if all the homebases had been A) Completed (all characters) and B) each received an OPD and non-OPD aspect.
Stupid Marvel had to run the game into the ground. The least they could have done for us was give us some completion.
-BBH
How exactly did Marvel run the game into the ground anyways? Does anyone know the true catalyst that brought the game to it's premature conclusion?
Could it have been the fact that in order to play tournament style, each player should have had the specials guide at their side so that they knew how to play any given card, since you couldn't trust the text written on the card?
Was it really because of the mis-sizing of the X-men set that forced players who wanted to utelize those cards to use deck protectors, even if they'd never used them in the past?
Was it because it was really hard to stay on top of cheating in tournament play?
These are all reasons that I've heard, but I didn't know if anyone out there had a definative reason for the downfall.
Quote from: Demacus on August 05, 2011, 10:49:14 AM
How exactly did Marvel run the game into the ground anyways? Does anyone know the true catalyst that brought the game to it's premature conclusion?
...
These are all reasons that I've heard, but I didn't know if anyone out there had a definative reason for the downfall.
Where do you get this stuff? (Oh right the internet....).
A full answer is probably worthy of a longer post but the short version is that in late 1999 Marvel sold the exclusive right to market a CCG based on Marvel Characters to WOTC. (And they the gave us X-Men TCG - thanks Wizards). This was undoubtedly a business decision and you have to remember Marvel was going through tough financial times back then, including a period of bankruptcy. Selling the license brought in money and perhaps that was simply more attractive than a game they couldn't afford to support, that wasn't bringing in much money, and that was facing tough competition from 1,001 other ccg's. The Marvel-CCG license subsequently passed to Upper Deck (VS) and may now have expired. Now that Disney owns Marvel perhaps the mouse wants to put their money into resurrecting a family friendly game...
If any single event 'killed' OverPower it was that. However OverPower had been sick for a while. Again, much of this may have been due to lack of support from Marvel and that, in turn, due to Marvel's financial situation. You could also add significant events in OverPower's health status at the move from Fleer-Skybox to Marvel Interactive and at the departure of Ron Perazza.
Quote from: JohnL on August 05, 2011, 02:27:35 PM
... If any single event 'killed' OverPower it was that...
That's funny... I always thought
this was the Event that killed Overpower...
Quote* HEROES AVENGE MURDER <MC> {R} Iron Man
One Front Line Hero of your choice is immediately KO'd. Reserve Hero
immediately moves into play. Card is discarded if it will end game.
That's funny... I always thought this was the Event that killed Overpower...
Quote
* HEROES AVENGE MURDER <MC> {R} Iron Man
One Front Line Hero of your choice is immediately KO'd. Reserve Hero
immediately moves into play. Card is discarded if it will end game.
Too funny! lol
taking 1 less hit is always good
(http://www.overpower.ca/cards/specials/133.jpg)(http://www.overpower.ca/cards/specials/676.jpg)(http://www.overpower.ca/cards/specials/945.jpg)
but i hate that those were opd