suppose we were to come up with new character stats
i guess the first thing to do, would be to have a standard
what do y'all think of the following
strength
8 superman (super-heavyweights)
7 thing (~100 tons)
6 iron man (50-100 tons)
5 spider-man (10-50 tons)
4 beast (~10 tons)
3 captain america (~ton)
2 green arrow (regular-fit human)
1 professor x (lifts body weight and under)
after that however, the other 3 categories are harder to rank. if we match them up to be equal to strength, the fighters will be at a disadvantage...which imo, they should be.
it comes down to whether you want an accurate game, or a balanced one.
also, energy and fighting are easy to interpret, but how does one use 'intellect' in a fight. perhaps it could be factored into the 'fighting' category.
someone like flash for example, id give
energy: 1
fighting: 8
strength: 2
his speed lets him compete with heavy hitters, and i'd have his specials reflect the fact that he can use his speed to create energy and strength attacks
any interest in doing a regular topic to re-rank characters?
So you want to cut out the intellect ranking? It would make some characters almost useless... Joker, Riddler, Forge, Hank Pym... not that they are all that usefull now.
But yeah I would totally be up for a re-rank discussion.
Hulk E-3 F-4 S-8 I-3 Dr.Strange E-8 F-3 S-2 I-7
Iron Man E-6 F-3 S-6 I-8 Deadpool E-3 F-7 S-4 I-3
Hank Pym E-2 F-4 S-2 I-8 Scarlet Witch E-8 F-3 S-2 I-4
Captain America E-1 F-8 S-5 I-5 Dr.Doom E-7 F-3 S-5 I-8
Thor E-7 F-4 S-8 I-4 Moon Knight E-1 F-6 S-4 I-5
Spider-Man E-2 F-8 S-6 I-6 Apocalypse E-4 F-4 S-7 I-8
Silver Surfer E-8 F-3 S-7 I-4 Beast E-1 F-7 S-6 I-7
Daredevil E-2 F-7 S-3 I-6 Carnage E-3 F-7 S-6 I-2
like i said, intellect is tricky in a combat system
i mean, if you take me and stephen hawking
me:
energy: 1
fighting: 1
strength: 2
intellect: 4 or 5
hawking
energy: 1
fighting: 1
strength: 1
intellect: 8
i'd destroy him :(...even if my intellect was 1, and my stats were 1/1/2/1 it wouldn't be a fair fight (an extreme example, i know)
as i said before, if it were up to me, i'd roll in intellect with the fighting stat, and make sure it was well represented in specials
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:42:31 PM
also, i noticed you gave some characters 2/3s in energy...what do you consider an energy action?
i always thought of it as merely energy projection/psi/magic actions. energy attacks from weapons, i didn't think should count
hulk for example, has the thunderclap (energy) but it's a side-effect of his strength
here's how i'd do batman
energy 1
fighting 5
strength 3
intellect 8 (though i've stated how i feel about this stat)
what i'd give batman, is a kick ass inherent. the one i was thinking is 'batman gets +1 bonus per battle' (+1 in 1st round, +2 in 2nd etc)
this takes into account his adaptability and improvisasion, which allows him to stick with more powerful foes. stick him in reserve, and beef him up. i was even thinking of having the bonus apply to damage or venture total (was leaning towards venture, but this could send the game way out of wack in a drawn out fight)
also, i'd give him a special, say 'reserve JLAer' that's a teammate avoid playable from reserve.
as for his detective skills, i'd have one of those opd's that lets you sort through opponents draw pile and put cards on top...how's 4 sound (burn 2 doubles, or 4 crappy cards)
what do y'all think? any other specials he should have?
no one seems to care, but i enjoy making these, so whatever
next up is martian manhunter
energy 8
fighting 7
strength 7
intellect 7
one of the most well balanced character until you reach cosmic or sky-father level characters. so what are you supposed to to with him. obviously, he'll need a homebase to make him usable, or an inherent like hydra's (counts as XX for tournament building)
i'm not sure if he still has a weakness to fire, but if he does, i'd try to work that into his inherent as well (ko'd by any energy attack from a fire character)...have to define these, but not too hard.
as for specials, i'd say, like batman, his role in the jla is a reserve specialist/co-ordinator. i'd give him a special that gives team +1 to all actions for remainder of battle, playable from reserve.
As a long-time Steel fan, I've always been completely baffled as to why he was given a 4 intellect. Anyone who knows his back story knows both that he designed (and re-designed) his own armor (which is obviously much more than a suit of armor) and that he was one of, if not the, best weapons designers working for the US military when he realized his guns were falling into the wrong hands and faked his own death. It seems to me he deserves at minimum a 5 intellect, perhaps a 6. Giving him the same intellect rating as Wolverine, Punisher, Jubilee, Namor, Human Torch, Black Cat, etc. makes absolute zero sense to me. Iron Man got a 7 intellect for building his own armor!
thought i'd revisit this
gonna go through with the op starter decks, and look forward to anyone's input/comments
MUTANTS UNITE:
Storm
E: 7
F: 3
S: 2
more or less her original stats, just took her fighting and strength down 1
Rogue
E: 1
F: 3
S: 6
original (5,3,7)...took her energy way down, as her only energy move seems to be her touch, which she's reluctant to use. this should be reflected in a special OPD (and axe the special she has now). also took her strength down a notch, though to be fair, i could easily see bumping her back to 7
Gambit
E: 6
F: 4
S: 2
original (6,5,4): agree with the original stats, just not the scale they were based on
Bishop
E: 6
F: 3
S: 2
original (5,6,4): same boat as gambit, and again, could be convinced to drop energy back to 5
more or less nothing radical done with the first set. just re-scaling for the strength i layed out earlier
OK ive had grudge with a few of OP character stats
Cable
E-7
F-7
S-3
I-4
Cyclops
E-8
F-2
S-2
I-6
Deathlok
E-3
F-6
S-7
I-4
Dracula
E-3
F-3
S-7
I-8
Henry Pym
E-3
F-3
S-5
I-8
Hydra
E-3
F-6
S-3
I-8
Mole Man
E-4
F-2
S-2
I-8
Nightwing
E-2
F-7
S-3
I-6
Fighting Powercards are +1 to Attack
These are just a few of my gripes
Quote from: breadmaster on March 28, 2010, 04:08:34 PM
like i said, intellect is tricky in a combat system
i mean, if you take me and stephen hawking
me:
energy: 1
fighting: 1
strength: 2
intellect: 4 or 5
hawking
energy: 1
fighting: 1
strength: 1
intellect: 8
i'd destroy him :(...even if my intellect was 1, and my stats were 1/1/2/1 it wouldn't be a fair fight (an extreme example, i know)
as i said before, if it were up to me, i'd roll in intellect with the fighting stat, and make sure it was well represented in specials
Since this thread has apparently had Dr. Strange's CK played on it... :P LOL! I'll respond to this point. I think intellect 8 would mean before you got to Hawking you would have get through what ever crazy defense system he's set up to stop you first. Once you get in the room with him, he's probably got some type of force field, or image inducer so you can't find him. The once you do try to touch him you get shocked to death or something. The intellect 8 for someone like him, in the comic world anyway, is all about plans within plans and predicting your moves, nullifying your strengths, and exploiting your weaknesses. So when you play your level 6 strength attack (because you've been working out and combined it with a +4 training ;D) and he blocks it with a 6 intellect power card, you really just put a major crack in the wall as you punch through a hologram or something. Just my thoughts on it.
why would we be fighting in room hawking had defenses prepared in?
that's like saying namor gets to start all his fights at the bottom of the ocean...not exactly level playing ground
guess i'm just not a fan of the intellect stat overall. what exactly is an 'intellect' attack. i can wrap my head around an engergy blast, a fighting roundhouse or a straight up strength punch to the head...but how is one supposed to 'think' an attack?
i get that some characters are smarter than others, and this is definitely an advantage. just feel that this advantage should be represented in the special cards
Without the Intellect stat, characters like Henry Pym couldn't exist (unless it's as the Giant-Man identity).
Quote from: breadmaster on February 21, 2011, 08:21:07 PM
why would we be fighting in room hawking had defenses prepared in?
that's like saying namor gets to start all his fights at the bottom of the ocean...not exactly level playing ground
guess i'm just not a fan of the intellect stat overall. what exactly is an 'intellect' attack. i can wrap my head around an engergy blast, a fighting roundhouse or a straight up strength punch to the head...but how is one supposed to 'think' an attack?
i get that some characters are smarter than others, and this is definitely an advantage. just feel that this advantage should be represented in the special cards
I love the intellect stat, it does flesh characters out quite nicely.
As for it's use - it makes total sense. No, you can't 'think' an attack like you would throw a punch or a bus, but intellect represents the non-physical aspects of a character's abilities. It represents scheming, and plotting. Luring an opponent into a trap, creating (or solving) an intricate series of puzzles. etc.
How can I use my intellect to stop a rock thrown at my head? Perhaps I've placed myself in a strategic place where it's hard to hit me.
How is intellect used to attack? Perhaps a character is a charmer, and good with words to deceive, and connive. Or, something like Kingpin ruining Matt Murdock's reputation would be an intellect attack. It doesn't 'physically' harm him, but it certainly puts him in a bad way.
Intellect totally makes sense in context.
-BBH
guess it all goes back to my initial statement of whether you want a balanced game, or a realistic one
because an 8 in energy or strength is leagues above an 8 in fighting or intellect
another way to address this could be to have fighting and intellect only go to a maximum of 4 or 5...i don't know
Quote from: breadmaster on February 22, 2011, 01:13:34 AM
guess it all goes back to my initial statement of whether you want a balanced game, or a realistic one
because an 8 in energy or strength is leagues above an 8 in fighting or intellect
another way to address this could be to have fighting and intellect only go to a maximum of 4 or 5...i don't know
I think we can toss realism out the window in any circumstance with this one - but balance is absolutely essential to any game. ;)
And again, I disagree about the energy or Strength being leagues above fighting or intellect. How many stories have you read where the hero outsmarted the rampaging monster? Or Skill trumped brute force? That's the idea behind it.
Completely off topic - any idea what team(s) you're bringing to the meetup on Saturday?
-BBH
so far i'm thinking pretty basic...an asteroid m team
also, do you guys allow proxies of cards from the unreleased 'marvels' set?
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 22, 2011, 12:27:52 AM
Quote from: breadmaster on February 21, 2011, 08:21:07 PM
why would we be fighting in room hawking had defenses prepared in?
that's like saying namor gets to start all his fights at the bottom of the ocean...not exactly level playing ground
guess i'm just not a fan of the intellect stat overall. what exactly is an 'intellect' attack. i can wrap my head around an engergy blast, a fighting roundhouse or a straight up strength punch to the head...but how is one supposed to 'think' an attack?
i get that some characters are smarter than others, and this is definitely an advantage. just feel that this advantage should be represented in the special cards
I love the intellect stat, it does flesh characters out quite nicely.
As for it's use - it makes total sense. No, you can't 'think' an attack like you would throw a punch or a bus, but intellect represents the non-physical aspects of a character's abilities. It represents scheming, and plotting. Luring an opponent into a trap, creating (or solving) an intricate series of puzzles. etc.
How can I use my intellect to stop a rock thrown at my head? Perhaps I've placed myself in a strategic place where it's hard to hit me.
How is intellect used to attack? Perhaps a character is a charmer, and good with words to deceive, and connive. Or, something like Kingpin ruining Matt Murdock's reputation would be an intellect attack. It doesn't 'physically' harm him, but it certainly puts him in a bad way.
Intellect totally makes sense in context.
-BBH
Yeah that's the point I was making when I said intellect, " is all about plans within plans and predicting your moves, nullifying your strengths, and exploiting your weaknesses. "
Quote from: breadmaster on February 22, 2011, 03:01:30 PM
so far i'm thinking pretty basic...an asteroid m team
also, do you guys allow proxies of cards from the unreleased 'marvels' set?
Asteroid M, nice. So few people use the homebases. I actually have a Danger Room as well as an Avalon Team ready to go.
Incidentally, did you get my list of our House rules? There's one in there that pertains to Homebases, and using specials from the absent characters. Just remember to fish the card(s) out if you're playing someone with official rules.
As for the Marvels - but of course! As far as I'm concerned, they would have been official, so it's all good. I use them all the time in all of my decks and battlesites.
Looking forward to Saturday!
-BBH
The Marvels are fantastic to play with, I wouldn't have it any other way. The only card I don't like is the X Man 7 fighting AR, but besides that, I think it's the best set since Monumental.
Quote from: HotRod on February 22, 2011, 07:13:32 PM
The Marvels are fantastic to play with, I wouldn't have it any other way. The only card I don't like is the X Man 7 fighting AR, but besides that, I think it's the best set since Monumental.
What's not to like about a 7F (AR)? Don't be a hater!
Quote from: ncannelora on February 23, 2011, 11:28:54 AM
What's not to like about a 7F (AR)? Don't be a hater!
I don't think it's so much the card, as much as who got it. Probably a bit too much for X-man.
But that hasn't stopped me from using it! <snicker>
-BBH
Haha, haters gonna hate! I'm most definitely a hater when it comes to X-Man having a 7 AR. All it does it shit on Sentinels, and to a lesser extent Reyes.
There is almost 0 reason to play Sentinels over X-Man with the addition of the 7 AR.
Hunter killer vs Apocalyptic Survival?
Reaction Program vs Illusory Reality?
Nimrod vs Ultimate Potential?
This reminds me of Spawn getting "Finite Power" which shoud have been an Any Hero from what I've heard. I also have little doubt the X-Man 7 AR would have been a nice "Short Print" like the Starjammer 8 HN.
No doubt that the 7F given to X-Man raises him to another level, but isn't that appropriate?
I'm fully aware of the scores and scores of characters who were completely neglected when it comes to their OP representation, but just because Nightwing was jacked doesn't mean X-Man should be anything less than supreme.
Instead of hatin' about him being more powerful than his potential OP counterparts, why don't we celebrate the fact that TPTB got this little heirarchy correct?
X-Man > Sentinels > Reyes
!
Quote from: HotRod on February 23, 2011, 03:43:20 PM
Haha, haters gonna hate! I'm most definitely a hater when it comes to X-Man having a 7 AR. All it does it shit on Sentinels, and to a lesser extent Reyes.
There is almost 0 reason to play Sentinels over X-Man with the addition of the 7 AR.
Hunter killer vs Apocalyptic Survival?
Reaction Program vs Illusory Reality?
Nimrod vs Ultimate Potential?
Leave it to me to be contrary here - but Sentinels does have appeal over X-man in some circumstances. It really depends on what you're going for with your deck.
X-man has the 8 and similar specials, but he's exclusively an energy character meaning that there's little wiggle room for the teams he can go on.
Sentinels being a dual stat, can be added to either an energy or a strength team, and can operate two offsuit teamworks.
Of course, you put them together, and you have some brutal offense. Major offsuit teamworks AND AR specials, good defense and a couple of tricks.
Quote from: ncannelora on February 23, 2011, 04:48:45 PM
No doubt that the 7F given to X-Man raises him to another level, but isn't that appropriate?
I'm fully aware of the scores and scores of characters who were completely neglected when it comes to their OP representation, but just because Nightwing was jacked doesn't mean X-Man should be anything less than supreme.
I think there needed to be a little more thought about balance, in giving certain characters cards. X-Man is an inexpensive 8, with brutal specials. Even his Sinister creation special isn't terrible (though mostly unused). That guarantees that most people will use him. I always thought X-Man's grid should have been 8-4-4-4 but with the same cards. I think that would have balanced him a little more.
Ah yes, Nightwing. *sigh*
-BBH
I guess I should have been more clear when I said almost useless, and not completely useless. You can use Sentinels in a strength deck, but would that strength deck be better than the equivelent energy deck? That's more of the arguement I was trying to make.
I don't have any problem with X-Man having better specials than Sentinels, but I have a problem with X-Man being a 17 point 8 stat with better specials than Sentinels. If you took the additional 3 points Sentinels cost and added them to X-Man, you could have an 8 and a 6 on his grid. And what I mean by that, is if you build the team to 76 points, you can probably use those 3 extra points to get a dual stat character on the team such as Spawn, or Cable.
I like balance, but what I'm saying is i'm fine with an unbalance, as long as it's accurate. So again, I like that X-Man > Sentinels :)
In our little circle, we don't tend to let competition ruin creativity, though. So, we don't necessarily see an influx of top-tier people. I mean, we still use them, but it's not like I'm facing Marauders, Starjammers, or X-Man every week, so we don't get sick of them the way some people could.
Quote from: ncannelora on February 24, 2011, 11:21:46 AM
In our little circle, we don't tend to let competition ruin creativity, though. So, we don't necessarily see an influx of top-tier people. I mean, we still use them, but it's not like I'm facing Marauders, Starjammers, or X-Man every week, so we don't get sick of them the way some people could.
That's how we do it. ;)
/
Quote from: ncannelora on February 24, 2011, 11:21:46 AM
In our little circle, we don't tend to let competition ruin creativity, though. So, we don't necessarily see an influx of top-tier people. I mean, we still use them, but it's not like I'm facing Marauders, Starjammers, or X-Man every week, so we don't get sick of them the way some people could.
I think The Marauders have an unfair stigma attached to them from when they were dominant, so people still consider them "cheesey." They are nice, but shouldn't even be considered a top 10 character (and maybe not even top 20). I'd put them on the same level as The Serpent Society and Invisible Woman - solid but not top-tier.
Quote from: Onslaught on February 24, 2011, 06:53:20 PM
I think The Marauders have an unfair stigma attached to them from when they were dominant, so people still consider them "cheesey." They are nice, but shouldn't even be considered a top 10 character (and maybe not even top 20). I'd put them on the same level as The Serpent Society and Invisible Woman - solid but not top-tier.
These days, I tend to agree on this point. Back in the day, I hated, HATED, the fact that in order to be competitive, I had to use Marauders (OR FF). Now, with that need gone, I don't mind them so much.
-BBH
Quote from: ncannelora on February 24, 2011, 11:21:46 AM
I like balance, but what I'm saying is i'm fine with an unbalance, as long as it's accurate. So again, I like that X-Man > Sentinels :)
In our little circle, we don't tend to let competition ruin creativity, though. So, we don't necessarily see an influx of top-tier people. I mean, we still use them, but it's not like I'm facing Marauders, Starjammers, or X-Man every week, so we don't get sick of them the way some people could.
This is true, I agree with your view point. I guess it's a little different for me, because I'm used to big tournaments and the restrictions of top competitive decks. Anything that limits the choice of competitive decks is a step back when it comes to TCG's/CCG's, it's really what makes them appealing in my opinion. If I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess! :P
Going back to the original post of this thread, how do you define a stat value? Keep in mind, a while back I toyed with the idea of more charcters having the Beyonder's stats, but only 1 grid with the mobius instead of all 4.
Energy
1- Being almost incapable of any kind of energy projection or manifestation (Beast, Colossus)
2- Capable of primarily passive abilities (i.e. Wolverine's healing factor, Spider-Man's spider sense, ect...)
3- Capable of slight energy manipulation i.e. Tactile energy transfer (Rogue), slightly radioactive (Hulk)
4- Capable of Average energy manipulations, i.e. abilities to control/alter existing energy (Pyro)
5- Capable of slightly higher then average energy manipulations, i.e. charging objects to explosive levels (Gambit)
6- Capable of manefesting energy into physical forces, does not need a source of energy, i.e. ability to "create" energy manefestations (Jubilee), Telepathy (White Queen)
7- Capable of manefesting energy and weaving it/bending it to your will, i.e. focused blasts of energy (Cyclops), prolonged energy manefestations (Green Lantern), Telekinesis (Jean Grey), Teleportation (Nightcrawler)
8- Capable of cosmic levels of energy manipulation, i.e. Astral Projections (Prof X/Shadow King), Changing Reality/History through force of will (Scarlet Witch/Legion).
9/Mobius- Cosmic beings and beings made almost entirely OF energy, (Galactus/The Beyonder/The Ray/Proteus/Parallax)
Fighting
1- Clumsy and ineffective hand to hand combattant (Jubilee)
2- Basic knowledge, with no training (Juggernaut)
3- Basic training (jabs, blocks, throws) (Colossus)
4- Projectile and melee Weapons training (Lex Luthor/Gambit)
5- Military grade training/agile (Punisher/Solo)
6- Hand to hand martial artist/slightly above average agility (Captain America/Red Skull)
7- Martial arts weapons training/very agile (Daredevil/Spider-Man)
8- Martial arts specialist/extremely agile (Shang-Chi/Azreal)
9/Mobius- Trained and proficient in all forms of martial combat/almost untouchable agility (Batman/Ra's Al Ghul/Wolverine)
Strength
See Breadmaster's first post
9/Mobius- Strength potential unmatched/able to lift mountain(s) (REALLY pissed off Hulk)
Intellect
1- Practically instinctual/animalistic level of intellect
2- Primative intellect/capable of simple tool use
3-Average level of intelligence (Human Torch)
4-Dabbles in Science/minor inventions (Spider-Man)
5-Scientific background/Researcher (Hulk/Doc Samson)
6-Brilliant Scientists/Renouned strategists (Captain America/Beast)
7-Inventive genious. Plans almost never backfire, and have fail-safes. (Iron Man/Steel/Joker/Taskmaster)
8-Cosmic level of awareness/thinks on a universal scale (Dr.Strange/Adam Warlock/Dr.Doom/Mr.Fantastic)
9/Mobius- Flawless planner/nigh-omnipotent to truly omnipotent (Mephisto/Beyonder/Neron)
This is just my 2 cents on how some of the universes greatest breakdown...
i was thinking again about the balance/realism issue
what if you had the stats reflect the actual character's abilities, (rather than willy-nilly pumping up fighting/intellect to get 95% into the 16-20 point range) and drop the sum deck WAY down. this would almost force you to mix a heavy hitter, with a mid-range type, and 2 street level characters.
then you would force players to really choose between what specials and characters to use to find synergy.
then again, that would be a massive overhaul, and despite the grids, i DO really like this game
Quote from: breadmaster on August 28, 2011, 03:38:01 PM
i was thinking again about the balance/realism issue... and despite the grids, i DO really like this game
This is so funny, and my sentiments all the time! That's it, I'm quoting this in my signature now!
shadowcat i think should be
e6
f6
2s
6i
keep her i a as is