I particularly like this card (as opposed to the other FD-coded Special cards), because it says right on it that there's no conceding allowed, once that card sticks. With this in mind, I recently built a DEPT H team and I was trying to find a Battlesite to capitalize on Wolverine's Standoff, and I think I may have found the best pairing: Danger Room.
With this Battlesite, you have 3 potential cards that will win you the Venture 9/10 (if Standoff lands).
Gambit's Charm (BJ, OPD) - Obviously, if your opponent only has one target available to them, and that target cannot be attacked, that's going to severely hinder their ability to win the Venture.
Beast's Acrobatics (CD, non-OPD) - This card is almost as good as Charm. The only possible way a single character can attack you, once this is in play with Standoff, is if they are playing with Basic Universe or Training cards. Or if they are Multiple Man or are using a JU-coded special. Pretty unlikely.
Rogue's Southern Belle (AZ, non-OPD) - not typically a useful card. Not only does it only prevent 1 Target from attacking 1 of your FL, but it also only lasts until your target is attacked again. However, with Standoff in play, neither of these issues are a problem. First off, only 2 people are going to be involved in this battle anyway, Wolverine and his victim. So, saying that his victim can't attack him makes it as good as charm - for that turn... but wait, so the card will go away after you attack your victim again? Not necessarily a problem - if you have forced your opponent to Pass! Unless they have some things to do that aren't actually attacks (healing, exchanging, adding to venture) they'll have to pass, since they can't attack, and then they're on the defensive the rest of the battle!
Also for this battlesite, and to help with Rogue's Southern Belle (you'll need a card or two you can play that aren't direct attacks on your victim, until they pass) -
Iceman has 2 more useful cards with his Snow Blind (CM, non-OPD) and his OPAL TANAKA (AF, non-OPD).
With all of these cards that perfectly suit Wolverine's Standoff, it's no wonder he's the only Hero pictured on that Location 8)
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 08:17:55 PM
It's worth noting that there are still a few Specials that will get around Charm and Acrobatics (either before, or after they are in play).
JZ - example:
Quote* WRECKING BALL (JZ) <CL> {C}
Acts as a level 5 Strength attack. May not be defended with a Special
card.
MA - example:
Quote* VINDICATOR (MA) <XM> {C}
Acts as a level 5 Strength or Intellect attack. May not be defended by
a card from a Battlesite.
NJ - example:
Quote* PINPOINT LASER (NJ) <XM> {C}
Acts as a level 4 Strength or Energy attack. Attack is not affected by
Special cards already in play.
Also, X-WORLD and, ironically, HOLOGRAPHIC ATTACKERS, the Aspect for THE DANGER ROOM will also create some loopholes.
I may have missed some examples, but all in all, these cards aren't
too common. Even if you have to face one of those specials, it's not likely to make the difference in the Venture Total. As for the Homebases, they're not exactly the most used (although they are some of my favorites, personally).
I also love this card! And will be using a deck that tries to maximize it by playing it in a deck with Department H as a battlesite.
The goal is to get Legacy Regression played on one of my front line, and hope for a Wolvie activator the same hand as Down but Not Out event. To possibly destroy someone for venture.
Wait, are those 'may not be defended by a special card' not affected by specials already in play? I always figured that it couldn't be defended, but it could be prevented with a special card.
Quote from: Kal-el on June 16, 2011, 09:12:50 PM
Wait, are those 'may not be defended by a special card' not affected by specials already in play? I always figured that it couldn't be defended, but it could be prevented with a special card.
sorry, they are. i only meant you couldn't use Charm & Acrobatics
defensively against JZ or MA
Post Merge: July 23, 2011, 11:51:51 AM
I had another thought about this card. Because it says on it, that the Opponent cannot concede, can I use one of these cards, and land Standoff, to force my Opponent to stay in battle?
Quote* RAGE (BE) <PS> {U}
Wolverine may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded the battle.
Opponent may defend.
Quote* URBAN HUNTERS (BE) (H) <DCP> {X} [OPD]
Any Front Line Character may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded
the battle. Opponent may defend.
Quote* 6S 6A SHADOWHELMET <IM> {R} [OPD]
Teammate may make 1 attack after Opponent has Conceded the battle.
Opponent may defend.
Seems like I can. Seems like it's the same as playing
Quote* PAYBACK (BL) <XM> {R} [OPD]
Play when Opponent concedes battle. Opponent may not concede battle.
... thoughts?
I can't see why not.
Quote from: ncannelora on July 18, 2011, 03:52:05 PM
I had another thought about this card. Because it says on it, that the Opponent cannot concede, can I use one of these cards, and land Standoff, to force my Opponent to stay in battle?
Quote* RAGE (BE) <PS> {U}
Wolverine may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded the battle.
Opponent may defend.
Quote* URBAN HUNTERS (BE) (H) <DCP> {X} [OPD]
Any Front Line Character may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded
the battle. Opponent may defend.
Quote* 6S 6A SHADOWHELMET <IM> {R} [OPD]
Teammate may make 1 attack after Opponent has Conceded the battle.
Opponent may defend.
Seems like I can. Seems like it's the same as playing
Quote* PAYBACK (BL) <XM> {R} [OPD]
Play when Opponent concedes battle. Opponent may not concede battle.
... thoughts?
Well, Payback prevents him from conceding anyway. But yes, I would argue that playing Standoff after your opponent concedes will prevent him from conceding so long as it lands successfully. You don't ignore the secondary effects of any other special even if it's played after the opponent concedes, why would standoff be any different?
-BBH
I think he means playing it when the opponent concedes, thus allowing you to make another attack. Which is then the FD and nullifies the conceding.
Quote from: Jack on July 18, 2011, 04:13:38 PM
I think he means playing it when the opponent concedes, thus allowing you to make another attack. Which is then the FD and nullifies the conceding.
Ah yes. Re-read that. Same thing stands, playing Standoff after he concedes would essentially be the same as hitting him with taunt or payback.
-BBH
A dispute came up last Saturday in my use of this card and I wanted to bring it up here and (hopefully) find some validation.
I played TK SHIELD from Jean Grey: Dark Phoenix (her "EB" Special from The Marvels) which says,
QuotePlay during battle. For remainder of game, any attack made on Jean Grey's team may be moved to TK Shield. Jean Grey's team may not defend. TK Shield is discarded after 1 Hit.
After that was in play, I used STANDOFF from a Battlesite, for Phoenix (regular, not Dark ;)).
During that battle, I moved an attack to the TK SHIELD and I was met with resistance.
My argument: The Special is
already in play, and neither Pheonix (dark or regular) was
playing the card. Since the attack was, in fact, an "attack made on Jean Grey's team," and therefore, I could move the attack to the Special.
His argument: If Phoenix is the one who played STANDOFF, she cannot make use of Specials from other characters, even if they were already in play, because Jean Grey cannot defend her (per the STANDOFF text).
Thoughts?
I would have to side with your opponent based on reading the card. Part of the card reads that only Wolverine can defend during Standoff, and in a sense, Jean is defending with that played special, not Wolverine. Just my opinion. I could be wrong. :) I would be interested to read the official ruling.
that's an interesting POV. I can almost go with that, except in my mind, Jean isn't doing anything, it's that she had already done something (ie, before STANDOFF was played)... anyway, thanks for the feedback. I look forward to hearing more.
Also, I've thought of another question about STANDOFF (and the other FD specials).
What happens, exactly, if the Event: HELLFIRE CLUB ATTACKS is in play, and some one shifts the FD attack to the Reserve? will that end the battle? or does it create a "bridge" for the two to continue to attack eachother? Seems like it'd end the battle right then... unless of course, the two characters have other ways to attack eachother (or the STANDOFF player can continue to attack their battlesite).
For the first question, the special would be attacked and that would violate the text on FD.
Second question, the card overrules the reserve not being able to do anything and thus it would be legal to shift the attack to R and have them carry out the duties of FD.
Is "moving" the same as "attacking"?
Quote from: Jack on September 27, 2011, 11:11:07 AM
For the first question, the special would be attacked and that would violate the text on FD.
Second question, the card overrules the reserve not being able to do anything and thus it would be legal to shift the attack to R and have them carry out the duties of FD.
So, are you saying that with STANDOFF in play, I also cannot attack my opponent? or my opponent's other cards? So I couldn't play Scarlet Witch's AI, Huntress's EP, Reaver's GL, Colossus' OC, etc? I couldn't attack DEVOURER of WORLDS? That seems silly. I really think the intent of the FD Specials is that it reduces the battle to two characters, just like having only 2 characters left in the game.
Also, then what about if I already had Maverick's BG in play, before I played STANDOFF? Do you think Wolverine is still +2 to all actions? or do you think that is nullified, then?
Quote(121) Specials that alter which Character can be targeted do not alter the players choice to attack the Battlesite or the opponent - only the decision of which Character can be targeted.
Regarding the EVENT, it's not the Reserve who is shifting the attack, it's the Front Line. When that Event is in play, I cannot choose to target my opponent's Reserve. I still have to target their front line characters, and then they could choose to shift it to the Reserve.
If you were to go with the literal text on the card, yes, you can't attack the opponent.
Having BG is fair game because the BG card is not a target. Of course assuming it's in play before FD was played.
QuoteAny attack made on a front line hero may be moved to the reserve hero, who may defend.
So, the FD was moved to the reserve and the reserve chose not to defend. The special:
QuoteOnly Wolverine and Target Character may attack, be attacked or defend this battle. Neither player may concede this battle.
It modifies the condition of the battle and says that the Reserve, who is now the target of the FD, may attack/be attack/defend.
Quote from: Jack on September 27, 2011, 12:40:42 PM
If you were to go with the literal text on the card, yes, you can't attack the opponent.
Having BG is fair game because the HG card is not a target. Of course assuming it's in play before FD was played.
QuoteAny attack made on a front line hero may be moved to the reserve hero, who may defend.
So, the FD was moved to the reserve and the reserve chose not to defend. The special:QuoteOnly Wolverine and Target Character may attack, be attacked or defend this battle. Neither player may concede this battle.
It modifies the condition of the battle and says that the Reserve, who is now the target of the FD, may attack/be attack/defend.
We can't take the text of the cards literally, since so many of them were written poorly and leave too much room for debate (hence the meta rules) :-\
Also, I disagree about the Event scenario. Let's say it lands on the Reserve, (let's say, Huntress), and isn't defended.
- She has her 6S attack that says it can be played from Reserve. So she does.
- On Wolverine's turn, there is nothing in play that says he may target the Reserve character. While STANDOFF says he may only attack Huntress, she's in Reserve and Wolverine has no cards that can reach her there.
- On the flip side, when it's Huntress' turn again, she may only attack Wolverine, but she has no other valid attacks to make that will reach him from Reserve.
The FD text modifies who can attack, who can be attacked and who can defend for this battle.
Quote from: Jack on September 27, 2011, 01:11:17 PM
The FD text modifies who can attack, who can be attacked and who can defend for this battle.
But they still need a valid attack to use. Just because the FD singles out who can play cards, doesn't mean they get to use whichever cards they want. The cards still have to be playable, and from Reserve, that means a card must specify it's usable
from Reserve.
Why doesn't it? The card allows the target to attack just as much as the text for Polaris' inherent allows her to attack while in Reserve (May attack with Energy Power cards while in Reserve.). I don't see any difference between the two.
The reserve not being able to attack is an attribute of the battle. The attribute changes based on inherents, specials, events, artifacts, etc. played during the course of the battle (or previous battles). With the event played, you are changing the fact that you can't shift attacks away from the target character (in this case, to the reserve). With the FD played, you are (possibly) changing: Character Playing Special (CPC) is allowed to attack, CPC is allowed to be attacked, CPC is allowed to defend, Target is allowed to attack, Target is allowed to be attacked, Target is allowed to defend, everyone else loses those rights, and there is no conceding.
I do know that once a Standoff type card (FD) is in play, no other character but the two in combat may take any actions. But if a card, that affects my team, is in play before the Standoff succeeds (such as Beast or Jean's EB), but is not owned by the character I control in the Standoff (Wolverine, say), my character may not take advantage of the shield on the field? I don't see why they couldn't utelize the defense that was already on the field.
The card DOES state that "Play during battle. For remainder of game, any attack made on {x}'s team may be moved to {EB}. "{x}'s team may not defend. {EB} is ko'd after 1 hit." No where in the card does it state that {x} causes the shift or jumps in to defend, simply that {x} took precautionary steps to help his/her team when they need it most in the future. I personally would expect this to be a loophole to the FD rules, since it would be in play and in effect prior to the FD.
If I were playing with Zealot, and I got Kherubim into play, then I Standoff with Wolvie on my next turn, locking in a character with a usable negate in hand, could he retroactively negate the Kherubim after the Standoff hits/as a defensive manuever to the standoff, since he's not targeting Zealot, or would he not be allowed to negate anything that battle and simply hold the negate as a bluff card since he got caught with it in his hand?
I'm also in the school of mind that the Powers-that-were are no longer, and as long as both players agree on how a card should be played in advance, i.e. as written/via meta, ect, then that would go a long way toward ending disputes.
I just remembered bamf!'s strategy when he had 2 BJ cards played on his front line and Neron's CT played on one of the characters with the BJ (Reyes). Attacking Neron moves the attack under the BJ special and thus attacking Reyes.
With that in mind, is there a similar situation with the FD and EB cards?
Quote from: Jack on September 29, 2011, 06:41:12 PM
I just remembered bamf!'s strategy when he had 2 BJ cards played on his front line and Neron's CT played on one of the characters with the BJ (Reyes). Attacking Neron moves the attack under the BJ special and thus attacking Reyes.
With that in mind, is there a similar situation with the FD and EB cards?
I don't think so, since that's part of the double shift rule. That's not what these EB cards do, though (the EB-cards that protect the team, not the individuals). I really don't see why Wolverine can't take advantage of Jean's EB card. Jean isn't defending him. She's doing nothing (in the game). She's completely inactive.
here's another way for me to present the same effects.
Let's say that I play Jean's EB card. Then, my opponent plays Polaris' FN-Special
on Jean:
Quote* ENSNARE (FN) <XM> {U} [OPD]
Target Character may not attack or play Special cards for remainder of
battle.
That won't prevent Jean's teammates from using her Special, because it's
already in play. Jean is no longer taking any action, once that EB is in play. She's not attacking, she's not defending, she's not being attacked or playing any cards.
Or, let's say that Jean and Wolverine are my last two remaining characters. Jean plays the EB card, then dies on her next turn. Wolverine is still free to use the EB card, even though Jean isn't there for him to use it. Once that EB card is in play, it has nothing to do with Jean's character, as an individual.
I was never saying that it was Jean that had anything to do with the special. The special is in play, Jean gets killed, the EB is still in play. The act of moving the attack from Wolverine to the EB card is an act of moving the attack.
Now, is moving the attack a violation of "be attacked"? Moving the attack to the EB card, not the dead Jean.
Quote from: Jack on September 29, 2011, 08:06:19 PM
I was never saying that it was Jean that had anything to do with the special. The special is in play, Jean gets killed, the EB is still in play. The act of moving the attack from Wolverine to the EB card is an act of moving the attack.
Now, is moving the attack a violation of "be attacked"? Moving the attack to the EB card, not the dead Jean.
no, it doesn't violate it any more than attacking any other special would violate it. or attacking the battlesite. The FD Special only places limitations on
Characters, not on other cards.
I'll concede my argument, Norm posted on the QNA:
QuoteWith Cosmic Cube (or other similar specials) in play, you have effectively created a game in which Red Skull and the target character are the only ones left in the battle. It is as if the other characters were KO'd for the rest of the battle.
Quote from: Jack on September 29, 2011, 11:54:25 PM
I'll concede my argument, Norm posted on the QNA:QuoteWith Cosmic Cube (or other similar specials) in play, you have effectively created a game in which Red Skull and the target character are the only ones left in the battle. It is as if the other characters were KO'd for the rest of the battle.
ah! interesting... so, how does this work with the shift-to-reserve scenario? does it work the same way that it works when you put your own last character into Reserve? that it immediately ends the battle and you lose (because you ran away like a coward! :o)?
(btw, thank you for your thorough research. it's good to know that you have resources beyond my own ;))
so, are we in agreement, then? if you have wolverine's Standoff in play, you may not shift attacks to an EB? the violation is you're attacking the special, and the card says "only wolverine and target may attack, be attacked, or play specials." i mean, the Meta Rule ncannelora references only says you have the choice to attack a battlesite or a frontline character, but as a special in play is neither of these, would we not concede that an FN in play makes the battle truly between the CPC and the target?
I'm still not conceding the fact that the reserve is powerless. FD would allow the reserve to attack, it says so in the card.
The EB would still be in play and there's nothing preventing an attack to shift over to EB. My argument was that it was only the two characters in the battle and you couldn't target anything other than your opponent's only character. Norm stated that the situation was that it assumes that other characters were removed from the battle temporarily but everything else was allowed to be targeted.
You were never attacking the special, all EB cards first attack the character(s) in question and are then either automatically shifted (think Brood/Aquaman) or manually shifted (Beast/Jean Grey). The shifting would not violate the "be attacked" clause of the FD because a shift would ignore it.
Quote from: Jack on September 30, 2011, 04:08:27 AM
I'm still not conceding the fact that the reserve is powerless. FD would allow the reserve to attack, it says so in the card.
The EB would still be in play and there's nothing preventing an attack to shift over to EB. My argument was that it was only the two characters in the battle and you couldn't target anything other than your opponent's only character. Norm stated that the situation was that it assumes that other characters were removed from the battle temporarily but everything else was allowed to be targeted.
You were never attacking the special, all EB cards first attack the character(s) in question and are then either automatically shifted (think Brood/Aquaman) or manually shifted (Beast/Jean Grey). The shifting would not violate the "be attacked" clause of the FD because a shift would ignore it.
It really does seem like the simplest, most clear way to explain it is to say that when an FD-Special is in play, the remaining characters (and cards in play on them, or placed to them) are "off limits" for that battle. So, the Battlesite, boost cards, shield cards, etc, are all still effective and affectable.
For the Shift to Reserve thing... I suppose I'll concede that. Honestly, I don't see anything definitive, either way. In practice, I suppose I'd like the ability to shift an incoming STANDOFF to my Reserve and still have a fighting chance. On the flip side, if my own STANDOFF was shifted to my Opponent's Reserve, I'd rather it
not simply end the battle.
Sounds solid. The thing is, when you FD a character in reserve, if the other characters "act as if ko'd for remainder of turn" wouldn't that be the same as saying "temporarily move reserve character into the front line until battle is concluded" since the rest of the team is quietly sitting it out?
Quote from: Demacus on September 30, 2011, 03:16:25 PM
Sounds solid. The thing is, when you FD a character in reserve, if the other characters "act as if ko'd for remainder of turn" wouldn't that be the same as saying "temporarily move reserve character into the front line until battle is concluded" since the rest of the team is quietly sitting it out?
my only thing is that, even when it's down to a one on one fight, some one can still get sent to the Reserve, which ends the battle. But again, what kind of fun would that be? ;)
Really enjoyed reading the arguments for both sides. We like using Cosmic Cube so this topic is very relevant to me. So, if I read correctly, the consensus is that in play EB cards can be used as a defense, and that Standoff/Cosmic Cube can target the opponent's reserve character.
No, FD cards cannot target the reserve. It can only target the front line unless the character playing FD can specifically target the reserve. Even with Hellfire Club Attacks, you still cannot target the reserve, the victim of the FD can choose to move the attack to the reserve. If that scenario occurs, the battle continues as if the character playing FD and the final target of the FD were both the only front line characters for the battle.
Quote from: Jack on October 01, 2011, 05:31:35 PM
No, FD cards cannot target the reserve. It can only target the front line unless the character playing FD can specifically target the reserve. Even with Hellfire Club Attacks, you still cannot target the reserve, the victim of the FD can choose to move the attack to the reserve. If that scenario occurs, the battle continues as if the character playing FD and the final target of the FD were both the only front line characters for the battle.
Alright. I finally got it now. Thanks Jack!