This Event, like others, says that the affected cards are not discarded... can I choose to discard them? There would be a few benefits for this. Cards like Longshot's Purity Of Thought, or the Danger Room Inherent Ability.
The Event doesn't say, "Do not discard affected Power cards." - it seems to me that the card is just allowing you to keep those cards in your hand for bluffing. At least, that's how I'd always taken the cards wording - until I realized there could be benefit to the discarding...
It seems like this is similar to when a Character is KO'd in a Battle. The Rule Book says you make keep their now-unplayable-cards in your hand to bluff, but you could also discard them, right? Again, to take advantage of Longshot's card, at least...
Thoughts?
I would say no, you'd have to keep them. The wording on the event is pretty specific - 'are not discarded.' That implies to me that you have no option. It doesn't say 'affected cards may be kept' which would indicate the choice.
Of course, duplicates are still pitched...
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on June 22, 2011, 04:00:48 PM
I would say no, you'd have to keep them. The wording on the event is pretty specific - 'are not discarded.' That implies to me that you have no option. It doesn't say 'affected cards may be kept' which would indicate the choice.
Of course, duplicates are still pitched...
-BBH
I was afraid of that :(
The wording on the card is, in fact, specific - 'are not discarded.' But to me, it implies that I don't have to discard them.
Does anyone else want to weigh in on this? Has anyone seen this issue come up in a Tournament? It's a pretty specifc scenario...
Yeah... I'd side with BBH on this one. "Affected Power Cards are not discarded" seems clear to me.
be honest, are you guys just saying no because I'm trying to do something cool? seems like i should be able to choose to discard any unusable cards if I want to do so.
I think that it is pretty clear from the wording that "are not" does not imply "don't have to be". This is especially clear because some events that prevent the use of certain cards do not specify that the cards are not discarded.
Quote from: ncannelora on June 22, 2011, 05:44:25 PM
be honest, are you guys just saying no because I'm trying to do something cool? seems like i should be able to choose to discard any unusable cards if I want to do so.
Damn! You've seen through our clever ruse. Ranerdar, the jig is up, he's on to us. :P
The distinction between what you may and may not do is actually pretty important. You can't arbitrarily discard cards for a number of reasons - placed cards rendered unusable chew up a placed card spot - you are now at a strategic disadvantage and have to work around it. (That's what Marvel Manhattan is for) Cards in hand as well. While the situation isn't exactly a common one, it's still possible. You mentioned purity of Thought - you can't just arbitrarily opt to discard cards in order to fuel purity. Likewise, what about the Any mission - To save the world. What if I realized that I had more cards than you, so I opted to just discard a bunch to drain your hand?
You'd have to come up with a bunch more rules to govern such a thing - "A player may discard any cards from hand or placed, unless To Save the World is in play and the moon is at it's apex during the month of an equinox when your opponent has only ventured 1.5 cards this turn and meta rules 84, 76, 21 and 13 have been referenced." , which is the last thing this game needs.
Conversely - Hawkeye has Combat Ready - a card that allows him to pitch unusables and redraw, keeping dupes.
The Danger Room example bears mentioning as an exception. It simply says that you may redraw for unusable cards. There's no requirement for you to place a power card on the reserve, you can opt to discard a currently unusable power card for a redraw.
-BBH
Quote from: Palatinus on June 22, 2011, 06:23:53 PM
I think that it is pretty clear from the wording that "are not" does not imply "don't have to be". This is especially clear because some events that prevent the use of certain cards do not specify that the cards are not discarded.
These other EVENTS don't specify because their destructive potential is significantly smaller.
I really feel like that verbiage was added only to balance their ruinous ability. So if I want to discard the affected cards from my hand, because I'm annoyed or because I can take advantage of it, I feel like that's my prerogative.
QuoteThe distinction between what you may and may not do is actually pretty important.
I agree. I'm not saying you should be able to discard arbitrarily. But, only when cards become unusable - like when some one is KO'd. And even then, I only mean that relative to what's in your hand. I agree that if you placed a card that becomes unusable, because that's in the Rule Book - you can't discard something that's placed unless another card tells you you can - maybe
that's why they added the verbiage.
Anyway, I guess I'll just have to use the Promo version of the Event, MUTANT REBELS HELD CAPTIVE! "No Strength Power cards may be played this battle." - it doesn't have the second sentence ;D
Not saying this is definitive or anything, but the rule book states, under Sequence of Plan - Discarding, "Any cards that have been rendered Unusable due to one or more of your Characters being K.O.'d must be immediately discarded."
Doesn't say "or as the result of an Event"
Also, you know I'm pretty easy going. If you want to dump cards affected by the Event, I don't really care. Just means I'll lose in 4 turns instead of 5.
Quote from: ncannelora on June 22, 2011, 08:38:16 PM
These other EVENTS don't specify because their destructive potential is significantly smaller.
I really feel like that verbiage was added only to balance their ruinous ability. So if I want to discard the affected cards from my hand, because I'm annoyed or because I can take advantage of it, I feel like that's my prerogative.
Even if that is how you feel about it, there is no real basis for that interpretation. As far as within the context of the wording and the context of the game, you are allowed to do things that follow the rules unless a card that affects gamplay says otherwise. So, basically, yes, you would discard the cards normally, except you have a card that explicitly says you do not. There really isn't an wiggle room there. It is not as if the game designers were unaware of the word "may". They could have made the card give you a choice very easily, but they did not.
The way that card is worded you would not be allowed to simply discard them.
They could be placed or used for bluffing. You could discard them as a result of another action, such as Power Leach or a "BY" special such as Leaders Omnibus.
Quote from: Ranerdar on June 23, 2011, 01:25:22 AM
Not saying this is definitive or anything, but the rule book states, under Sequence of Plan - Discarding, "Any cards that have been rendered Unusable due to one or more of your Characters being K.O.'d must be immediately discarded."
Doesn't say "or as the result of an Event"
Also, you know I'm pretty easy going. If you want to dump cards affected by the Event, I don't really care. Just means I'll lose in 4 turns instead of 5.
Unfortunately, that sentence in the Rule Book is not difinitive, since it doesn't mention Ally Cards w/no Specials, or other Universe cards with no Power cards. So, a character being K.O.'d is not the only cause of an unusable card.
Like I said, though, I'll just have to use the version of MUTANT REBELS HELD CAPTIVE! that doesn't include that wording (unless that card is somehow not legal for play).
Misprints don't magically get around the intent of the card. If you play the Annihilation Affair event that says no cards with a strength icon can be used to attack, you can't use the misprinted Sorceress Slam with a fighting icon.
I would have to agree with Onslaught on that one.
But I guess if you're just playing with your friends then you guys can choose to interpret it how you want, as long as both people playing agree beforehand.
Quote from: ncannelora on June 22, 2011, 05:44:25 PM
be honest, are you guys just saying no because I'm trying to do something cool? seems like i should be able to choose to discard any unusable cards if I want to do so.
lmao
Quote from: Onslaught on June 23, 2011, 02:08:48 PM
Misprints don't magically get around the intent of the card. If you play the Annihilation Affair event that says no cards with a strength icon can be used to attack, you can't use the misprinted Sorceress Slam with a fighting icon.
I don't think it's a misprint, it was the first printed. In fact, I'd argue that the others are misprinted versions of the original one.
Or the others reprints to clarify the original intent. We can argue hypotheticals all day.
Quote from: Ranerdar on June 23, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
Or the others reprints to clarify the original intent. We can argue hypotheticals all day.
Was there ever anything published to say that the Promo version of MUTANT REBELS HELD CAPTIVE is a misprint? Nothing on the card itself shows it to be a misprint (unlike the Scarlet Witch card).
Quote from: ncannelora on June 23, 2011, 05:04:27 PM
Quote from: Ranerdar on June 23, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
Or the others reprints to clarify the original intent. We can argue hypotheticals all day.
Was there ever anything published to say that the Promo version of MUTANT REBELS HELD CAPTIVE is a misprint? Nothing on the card itself shows it to be a misprint (unlike the Scarlet Witch card).
Well, no. But I also can't find it published anywhere that says you can discard cards rendered unusable by an event, when the event specifically says affected cards are not discarded.
or rendered unusable by an event at all.
Quote from: Ranerdar on June 23, 2011, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: ncannelora on June 23, 2011, 05:04:27 PM
Quote from: Ranerdar on June 23, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
Or the others reprints to clarify the original intent. We can argue hypotheticals all day.
Was there ever anything published to say that the Promo version of MUTANT REBELS HELD CAPTIVE is a misprint? Nothing on the card itself shows it to be a misprint (unlike the Scarlet Witch card).
Well, no. But I also can't find it published anywhere that says you can discard cards rendered unusable by an event, when the event specifically says affected cards are not discarded.
or rendered unusable by an event at all.
Exactly, so I'll use the Event that
doesn't say that the affected cards are not discarded. i.e., they'll be discarded! ;D
Fine, the rest of the forum may not. But I'll concede your "variant" event card.
QuoteI don't think it's a misprint, it was the first printed. In fact, I'd argue that the others are misprinted versions of the original one.
You're right, a promotional preview printing of a card with no copyright symbol that was never distributed through booster packs is probably the defintive version over the card that was actually available at retail after the set had been finalized. Now your pointless deck with a useless gimmick will be unstoppable, congratulations!
Quote from: Onslaught on June 23, 2011, 06:51:46 PM
QuoteI don't think it's a misprint, it was the first printed. In fact, I'd argue that the others are misprinted versions of the original one.
You're right, a promotional preview printing of a card with no copyright symbol that was never distributed through booster packs is probably the defintive version over the card that was actually available at retail after the set had been finalized. Now your pointless deck with a useless gimmick will be unstoppable, congratulations!
Well, I wouldn't exactly call it a pointless deck. In our circle, the gimmick is often the entire point.
Quote from: Onslaught on June 23, 2011, 06:51:46 PM
QuoteI don't think it's a misprint, it was the first printed. In fact, I'd argue that the others are misprinted versions of the original one.
You're right, a promotional preview printing of a card with no copyright symbol that was never distributed through booster packs is probably the defintive version over the card that was actually available at retail after the set had been finalized. Now your pointless deck with a useless gimmick will be unstoppable, congratulations!
"You wish to surrender to me? Very well, I accept."
For the record, I never said it was the difinitive version. Only that it was not a mis-print. Like Ranerdar said, it's a "variant".
No it's not, they have the same name. You're wrong, get over it because it wasn't that good of an idea even if it worked in the first place.
Just play however you want. You only play in your circle anyway, since your scared to make 1 hour drive to play me. WWJD? I think he would have played with his disciples using the real rules. But then again, you have NEVER played by the real rules, so why would we expect you to start now?
Just play the game however you want, if your circle doesn't care, then its fine. It might be nice to know the real rules though, however. In case if you ever make the trip to the Bay Area, San Diego, or Canada to play talented opponents by the real rules. Wait... not Canada, they don't use real rules :D
I actually agree with Dr.Death on the whole you can play it however you want with the people you play with, as long as you both agree, but in any regulation game I don't think your argument holds up.
On the other hand... Dr.D. Dude what's with the personal attacks, the man already requested you politely to not bring up religion or more specifically Jesus. Are you that petty that you have to personally attack people who have differing opinions of you?
Love the discussions, hate the tone.
I was just trying to speak to the man in his own language. I thought he might appreciate the advice I had to offer.
Sometimes I feel like my posts aren't very greatly appreciated on this forum.
Quote from: drdeath25 on June 23, 2011, 11:00:54 PM
I was just trying to speak to the man in his own language. I thought he might appreciate the advice I had to offer.
Sometimes I feel like my posts aren't very greatly appreciated on this forum.
If Jesus played Overpower (and hey, He might :)) He'd probably play by whatever rules we agree to use ahead of time.
For the record, I have played several games by the official rules and I have no problems with them (even the ruling above).
I use these boards to explore strategies, and part of that is testing the limits of the rules. That's how loopholes are found. It seems I've been trying to stretch this one, but the window is closing.
and, Onslaught, I'm not making any strategy out of this.
If the circumstance came up, I'd like to use this as a counter to the sabotage, but if it doesn't work (because of ruling, or negates :P) my deck wouldn't crumble.
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:17:58 PM
Oh, and I don't generally have a problem mentioning religion with Overpower (my God is the God of
all creation. It's just that calling yourself Jesus tends to rile me :-\). but thanks for the backing, Oscorp lol
I know drdeath25 wasn't trying to attack my religious beliefs.
(oh yeah, and drdeath25, the Bay is almost 3+ hours away. If it was only an hour, I might've made that a day trip ;))
fuck the police
Quote from: ncannelora on June 24, 2011, 01:29:03 AM
For the record, I have played several games by the official rules and I have no problems with them (even the ruling above).
Did you really play the games by the official rules, or did your lack of understanding of the official rules make you THINK you were playing by the official rules? I'm joking, really. :-*
Quote from: ncannelora on June 24, 2011, 01:31:29 AM
(oh yeah, and drdeath25, the Bay is almost 3+ hours away. If it was only an hour, I might've made that a day trip ;))
My offer stands, I could meet you halfway in either Sacramanto, Colusa, or Chico or somewhere closer for you. Thats a hour and a half drive tops for both of us. I need a tune-up before San Diego Comic Con this year, so it would be nice to get my confidence up with a few easy wins :P.
You can bring your whole crew, they will serve as just another piece of cake for me to chew a hole through.
Quote from: drdeath25 on June 24, 2011, 07:50:31 AM
Quote from: ncannelora on June 24, 2011, 01:29:03 AM
For the record, I have played several games by the official rules and I have no problems with them (even the ruling above).
Did you really play the games by the official rules, or did your lack of understanding of the official rules make you THINK you were playing by the official rules? I'm joking, really. :-*
Quote from: ncannelora on June 24, 2011, 01:31:29 AM
(oh yeah, and drdeath25, the Bay is almost 3+ hours away. If it was only an hour, I might've made that a day trip ;))
My offer stands, I could meet you halfway in either Sacramanto, Colusa, or Chico or somewhere closer for you. Thats a hour and a half drive tops for both of us. I need a tune-up before San Diego Comic Con this year, so it would be nice to get my confidence up with a few easy wins :P.
You can bring your whole crew, they will serve as just another piece of cake for me to chew a hole through.
At this point, with as much reading as I've done on these boards (literally every thread), I think I have the truly Official Rules now. But, to your point, there was a lot of learning to do, and I'm sure that you schooling me would provide more learning :-[
As for a meet-up, that'd actually be really cool to meet somewhere in Sacramento. It'd have to wait till later in the Summer, though. I have a trip up to WA for the 4th Of July and that's going to leech all of my extra expenses for a month or two. Also, do you have any friends who play with you in person that could come up with you? that'd be pretty sweet to get 8 people together and hold a mini tournament (just for fun) :)
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:17:25 PM
Also, the thought of Onslaught using such obsceneties is hilarious! ;D
Just FYI there's an edit button to add stuff to your most recent post instead of double posting all the time.
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:17:34 PM
This thread sucks
@Onslaught - LMAO
@Ncant - No, I do not have anyone in this area that I play with IRL. Everyone I know that plays lives in SoCal. So unless you know 6 other people we cant have a 8-man tournament, unless you come to San Diego in July. Maybe a 4-man round robin style in Sacramento?
why don't many of you cali-boys play opo? nate grey is the only one i've ever played
hmm...haven't seen him on in a while either...
I agree with both of Onslaught's posts above... but instead of a lmao I was more of a chuckle ;-)
I'm pretty sure all of us "Cali-Boys" use OPO. In fact, most of us have been using it since at least 2005, and have the older version of the program that is not compatible with the latest version of the program, thus we all had to re-make all of our decks to play against you Canadian Boys (and girls).
what's your msn contact?
I've only played a few games on OPO for 2 main reasons. During the week, I don't have a lot of time for Overpower and on the weekends, I have a set time during which I play (0700-1200, Sat) and it's against my mom, brothers, Ranerdar, and other less-regular friends.
I've only played a few OPO games against ncannelora for 2 reasons. 1 - The program is not very user friendly. Slight missteps in order of card play would cause a fatal error in the program and you couldn't just reset once the match was over. 2 - I'm not very good.
That's a good point, Overpower Online's novelty was that it included rules enforcement and pictures of cards. Now, it's a bit archaic in the way it forces you to use Hamachi to connect to someone (and it crashes a lot). There are a lot of open source programs that allow you to easily upload scans and card text, maybe it would be better to move onto a program like Magic Workstation. It would just be a table to drag cards around so it wouldn't tell you when to venture, when to discard, etc, but that isn't too big of a deal. The biggest upside would be that it has a central server, so instead of connecting directly to another player you can simply put a game up in the lobby and have someone join.
It wouldn't take too much work to get a patch for MWS together, but on the other hand it might make more sense to just wait for Jack's browser based app that also (I think?) plans to have a lobby system.
Quote from: breadmaster on June 24, 2011, 02:45:08 PM
why don't many of you cali-boys play opo? nate grey is the only one i've ever played
hmm...haven't seen him on in a while either...
SoCali-boy right here! 8) Yeah, been away for a while. Life getting in the way of having some Overpower fun but should be up for some games now.
opo has it's faults, sure, but it's still a great tool for getting in games. i've never played with anyone using hamachi, we just connect directly
to me. it seems to get crashed by 3 things
1) playing artifacts. this is easily worked around by simply placing the artifact (rather than playing) on the person you want
2) shifting attacks. the problem comes, when an attack is shifted, and not defended. the program seems to gradually lose track of the card images, so the opponent sees the wrong card. the solution here, is if you're not defending, shift the attack, but don't play the actual card (just discard it so your opponent can see the shift)
3) preventing conceding with appropriate specials. this one, unfortunately, doesn't have an easy solution. if you tell your opponent he can't concede, you lose the element of surprise. on the plus side, these cards aren't used much from what i've seen. if it's an attack that can be made after conceding, just tell your opponent, and they can tell you if they can block. if not, retrieve the card from the dead pile, and play it at the start of next battle
i'm sure there's other minor things that can crash it, but these 3 seem to come up alot. and you can always resume a game from the start of the hand.
and to dr. death, if you don't use msn, how do you arrange for games? are you interested in playing some games...they way you talk smack, i'd sure like to play you. download msn...takes a minute or two.
You can find me on AIM to chat. I use our overpower online Hamachi server to play games. I'll play you as many times as you want. Downloading AIM also takes a few seconds, and if you use meebo, you can use your MSN account to message my AIM account.
Also, have I ever talked smack to you? I only talk smack to the people that deserve it, and they know why. Be careful what you wish for though, my track record against Canadian Opponents from this board speaks for itself. 9-1 record, with the only loss because i didn't know we were using Marvels and House Rules.
i've never been afraid of taking a beating. heck, how else does one get better?
what's your aim contact?
PM sent
Quote from: drdeath25 on June 28, 2011, 08:56:40 PM
with the only loss because i didn't know we were using Marvels and House Rules.
You should make sure to clarify any stipulations of the match with your opponent before hand.
Quote from: Oscorp on June 29, 2011, 05:45:04 PM
You should make sure to clarify any stipulations of the match with your opponent before hand.
Agreed. When I play a game using my deck with seven copies of Computer Genius and my opponent gets upset, it's really his own fault for not asking me beforehand if we would be using the regular rules.
Exactly. Communication is key to getting along! ;D
So, back on topic - this literally, just came up in my game, using my Danger Room deck and it seemed to present a new scenario that deserves some clarification -
On The Move came into play.
I had a lv.7 Int and a lv.7 Anypower.
My first question is,
1) Am I still required to discard the duplicate?If so,
2) Am I required to keep the Int Power card?and last, if I am allowed to discard the Int Power card,
3) Am I allowed to draw to replace, because of Danger Room's Inherent?I mean, it is unusable, even if that's not exactly why I'm discarding it, right?
Quote from: BigBadHarve on June 22, 2011, 04:05:35 PM
Quote from: ncannelora on June 22, 2011, 03:09:04 PM
I have a few more questions that fit the same Subject.
Let's say I'm playing with Gambit, RogueBH, Iceman, and Bishop in Reserve
I draw a 7F Power card - I am able to place it to Bishop, but can I also choose to discard it as unusable, to be able to draw another card?
Also, if I had a Power card placed to Bishop already, and I drew a 7F and a 7E, could I discard the 7F as unusable, as opposed to discarding it as duplicate?
I've always played that you can. The inherent says unusable. It doesn't specify that 'unusable but placeable for future use' doesn't qualify. If you can't use the card in that particular round, it is therefore unusable and you may replace it.
And yes, if you draw two power cards, and one is unusable that doesn't affect your ability to play the inherent. You can still redraw for it.
-BBH
I would say that you would just have to follow standard discard rules with this one and discard the 7 of your choice without re-drawing, because the inherent does not allow for re-draws on duplicates.
Quote from: Oscorp on June 30, 2011, 05:50:11 AM
I would say that you would just have to follow standard discard rules with this one and discard the 7 of your choice without re-drawing, because the inherent does not allow for re-draws on duplicates.
I would say that if multiple discard rules apply you should get to choose which one to follow first. Even though the event takes place before the discard phase, you are still discarding all discards during a singular discard phase. Similarly, if you had a character KO-d who could play a certain power card which no one else could play and you drew that card along with a duplicate power card, you should be able to discard the unusable one as unusable.
Also, tt seems like Danger Rooms ability should check the card that is discarded rather than what is in your hand when it determines if it was unusable or not. So if you discard an unusable card that is also a duplicate, rather than Danger Room checking your hand for why it was discarded, instead, it should examine the card discarded and see if it is unusable, then apply its inherent.
I guess my argument is that the Event states "Affected cards are not discarded." and I would say that the 7I is not affected by the event, it's affected by the 7A in my hand.
Seems I should at least be able to discard the 7I.
From there, I'd argue that the 7I was not usable, regardless of whether it was a duplicate or not. The Event makes it unusable.
Seems I should be able to re-draw.
Also, the Danger Room isn't exactly a power house of a Home Base. They could use this obscure, rare, advantage. You know, 'cause this is Gambit's only Home Base ;D
Afaik, the 7I would only be unusable if you can't place it, or the character(s) who could use it are toast. It shouldn't have anything to do with duplicates.
Quote from: Hot Rod on June 30, 2011, 11:10:35 AM
Afaik, the 7I would only be unusable if you can't place it, or the character(s) who could use it are toast. It shouldn't have anything to do with duplicates.
So are you saying you think I have to place the 7A to Reserve? or are you saying I can place the 7I to Beast and keep my 7A in my hand?
I think you guys are overcomplicating it - It's a simple situation made clear by your homebase's inherent.
On The Move comes up. You're holding a 7I and a 7A in hand. 7I is unusable because of the event, and also because of the event you wouldn't normally have to pitch it. But you do have a duplicate, which means you have to get rid of one anyway. You are certainly not required to keep the unusable one over the usable one because the event tells you that affected cards aren't discarded.
Because it's unusable, you may utilize your inherent which states - During Discard phase, replace each unusable Power card with 1 card from Draw Pile. Discard Duplicate & Unusable cards.
The 7I qualifies as an unusable. Whether or not you also had to get rid of it because it's a dupe is irrelevant.
I would say, even if it wasn't a duplicate, you could still use your inherent. The wording is key there - it says replace unusable power cards, overriding other standard stipulations.
-BBH