Are non-numerical attacks that land considered "hits" as they pertain to the current battle and permanent records?
For example, can Run From Slaughter remove cards like these cards?
Quote* MENTAL CONTROL (AV) <BS> {VR} [OPD]
Target character may not attack for remainder of battle.
Or this one, in subsequent hands, after it's been in play for a hand or two:
Quote* SENYAKA (JF) <MN> {VR} [OPD]
All Any-Power cards on Target Character's Permanent Record become
Energy cards for remainder of game.
What about if some one is hit with that SENYAKA, and then later I play this card from Mystique? Will the JF be swapped with the numerical Hits? or will the numbers switch, but the JF remain on the original victim?
Quote* MISTAKEN IDENTITY (CA) <PS> {R}
Mystique may switch entire permanent record with any front line
teammate.
Has anyone seen this type of thing in play?
This is very interesting, I've always assumed hits to be numerical.
Somewhat related, I was talking to bamf! after the meetup about the MB cards, which act as a 6 and, if successful, the target is KO'd by a level 2 power card of some type:
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/569.png)
When I remove it with an AL card, the card goes away but the lasting effect should stay on (so, even with a clean record, if a 2S power card hits me, I'm gone). The way to really remove it would be to negate the effects of the card.
Back to your suggestion, I haven't found any ruling that explicitly says what "Hits" actually are; except that they were attacks that weren't defended. Though, I would imagine that the actual card being played would be a "hit" and any effects it brings be already absorbed by the character that has taken it. In other words, if you remove the AV with Morlocks' Run from slaughter, it would simply put the AV into the opponent's dead pile but you're still cursed with the fact that you can't attack.
I see! So, what about this scenario:
Let's say I have TheMorlocks and Mystique left on my front line and there's an MB on TheMorlocks, and then the EVENT comes up, EMPATHIC HEALING, which swaps 2 whole permanent records, the 6A is now on Callisto, but the secondary effect isn't transfered?
What about this, then... Instead of the EVENT, what if I played Mystique's CA- Mistaken Identity? That will swap all the hits, but none of the effects of the hits?
Is this the case for ALL cards that create effects, rather than straight damage? Like all of these...
Quote* BLACK HOLE FORCE BEAM (DQ) <JL> {VR} [OPD]
Target character's Hits to KO number is decreased by 5 points for
remainder of game.
* DARK MAGIC (NG) <XM> {U}
Acts as a level 5 Energy attack. If successful, Target Character loses
Inherent Ability and is considered to have no Inherent Ability for
remainder of battle.
* MUTANT SEEKER (NO) <XM> {C}
Acts as a level 2 Intellect attack. If successful, attacks made on
Target Character may not be moved to any of Target's teammates for
remainder of game.
* DOUBT (BD) <CL> {R} [OPD]
Target opponent may not use Power Type of Psycho-Man's choice for
remainder of battle.
* SECRETE PHEROMONES (DP) <PS> {VR} [OPD]
Target hero may not use cards with icon of Omega Red's choice for
remainder of battle.
* MERCY KILLING (NW) <XM> {R} [OPD]
Acts as a level 5 Strength attack. If successful and Target has Hits
totaling 15 or more, then Target is KO'd regardless of Inherent
Abilities and other Special cards.
* BACK SNAP (ML) <IM> {R} [OPD]
Acts as a level 4 Any-Power attack. If successful, Target Character may
be KO'd using normal KO rules, regardless of Inherent Abilities or
other Special cards, for remainder of battle.
Etc?
With my hypothesis, only the cards move and the secondary effects stay. Because the special "acts as", say, a level 6 Any-Power attack, removing it (the Hit) would also remove the damage.
So yes, I would say that any of the listed cards' effects would stay after the hit has been removed (but would be removed if it were negated).
Jack, I agree with almost everything...
Quote from: Jack on March 01, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
This is very interesting, I've always assumed hits to be numerical.
Back to your suggestion, I haven't found any ruling that explicitly says what "Hits" actually are; except that they were attacks that weren't defended. Though, I would imagine that the actual card being played would be a "hit" and any effects it brings be already absorbed by the character that has taken it.
Even if the rules don't explicit states that a successful non-numerical attack is a Hit, they specify that
a) "If a Special card or Aspect affects any of your opponent's Characters or your opponent's team of Characters,
even if it does no damage, it is considered an Attack"
and they also specify that
b) "When an Attack is successful, the card that was used to make the Attack is left in front of the attacked Character card to indicate that he has taken a Hit"
So (a)+(b) implicit states that successful non-numerical attacks are Hits!
Morbius' "Undead Stamina also strengths that hypothesis: "Negates the effects of any 1 Special card. May not be used to avoid a numerical attack, or remove a
numerical hit."
Since they used the term "numerical hits" it implicit states there are also non-numerical hits.
-------------------
About removing non-numerical hits with "remove 1 hit" cards
"AG avoids" don't state a specific condition, so they can be used to avoid either numerical and non-numerical attacks.
While "AD avoids" state a specific condition, therefore they can only avoid cards from a specific type.
By making a proxy,
"Remove 1 Hit" cards don't specify conditions and should be allowed to remove any kind of hits, including non-numerical ones.
Quote from: Jack on March 01, 2012, 05:01:07 PM
In other words, if you remove the AV with Morlocks' Run from slaughter, it would simply put the AV into the opponent's dead pile but you're still cursed with the fact that you can't attack.
Quote from: Meta #42
Quote
Meta #42: Cards which are "in play" are those cards which are: (a) on a Character's Permanent Record, (b) on a Character's Hits from Current Battle, (c) played by a Character to create some effect and has not yet been discarded.
Since cards that have been removed are discarded, and therefore are no longer in play, how come their effects still in play?
Also, if removing a card won't cease its effects, I guess KL cards would be useless.
KL: Opponent must immediately discard all Special cards in play that affect the "remainder of the battle" or the "remainder of the game."
Excellent rebuttal, my hypothesis is shot down.
So removing hits with Run from slaughter would also remove effects? So MB cards are effectively negated? And it would also remove AV cards as well?
Quote from: Jack on March 01, 2012, 11:07:19 PM
Excellent rebuttal, my hypothesis is shot down.
So removing hits with Run from slaughter would also remove effects? So MB cards are effectively negated? And it would also remove AV cards as well?
Of course, this argument becomes more complicated when you factor in the conditional effects.
I think a simple way around it is specifically defining the rules in this regard.
1. Cards with a secondary condition that affects the opponent remains for the stated duration, or until the card is removed from play.
2. If removed or avoided, cards with a secondary condition that affects the player who played the special should be placed next to the appropriate character to indicate that the effect is still in play until the duration expires or removed in some other way.
Or something along those lines...
-BBH
Based on these arguements, cards that allow for the removal of hits are almost as powerful as negates, save for the fact that you can play a negate defensively and a removal can only be played as an offensive action, and thus becomes succeptable to negates itself.
On the flip side, if I remove my opponents Warrior's Soul, his team doesn't reclaim their ability to attack.
Also, Meta ruling:
Meta #29: If a Special has the phrase "if successful", then the second aspect of the Special only takes place in the event that the initial attack is not defended. If the hit lands and is later negated, then the subsequent action is not negated if the result is no longer "on the table."
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 09:50:36 AM
Based on these arguements, cards that allow for the removal of hits are almost as powerful as negates, save for the fact that you can play a negate defensively and a removal can only be played as an offensive action, and thus becomes succeptable to negates itself.
Not to sound like a complete idiot, but if my opponent plays a removal card I can negate it? i.e. if he plays the Symbiote I can negate it when he plays it?
Yeah, his playing an AL is his offensive action, and you are allowed a defense, i.e. negate his AL.
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 10:09:59 AM
Yeah, his playing an AL is his offensive action, and you are allowed a defense, i.e. negate his AL.
So many swear words come to mind right now :-X.......when I used to play consistantly I never even thought about it literally being an "offensive action" since it wasn't an attack. At least now I know before I start getting my new group trained in the wrong way ;)
Thanks!
From my understanding most pro players don't bother with AL's unless it acts as an attack that has a secondary condition of removing a hit upon sucess. Otherwise you simply lose hand advantage and thus venture. I always just used what I liked since I never played for anything more then to piss my friends off. lol Same with Magic:The Gathering. I used blue 90% of the time, cause I liked being able to control my opponent and that really pissed off the guys I played against.
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 10:18:56 AM
Same with Magic:The Gathering. I used blue 90% of the time, cause I liked being able to control my opponent and that really pissed off the guys I played against.
I have a friend that built a blue deck about year ago and it was so slow and controlling that 2 people actually got frustrated enough that they walked out of an FNM! >:( It was hilarious because he would of for sure lost one of them (he was literally stalling for "hope" to win) but because of the 2 forfeits he actually won FNM that night.....
See, I would never play a deck that annoying against someone I didn't know, but it's a hoot to watch my friends faces as they realize they need my permission to play just about anything.
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 10:31:39 AM
See, I would never play a deck that annoying against someone I didn't know, but it's a hoot to watch my friends faces as they realize they need my permission to play just about anything.
Well the sad thing is he didnt fully do it to just piss them off, he actually wanted to see if he could win. I think the problem with one of the guys, was he had a Life Deck so he was up to (I dunno ???) about 50 life BUT he couldnt do anything else and he just sent him over the edge.
I do think thats one of the sadest things about collectible games - the temper of players. Throughout different games: OverPower, Heroclix, Magic, WarHammer, etc I have watched so many people seem to shift from happy to extremely pissed with rage simply becuase "what they planned backfired" or " the other player spanked them so hard it was embarassing."
OH WELL - good with the bad I guess :D
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 10:18:56 AMFrom my understanding most pro players don't bother with AL's unless it acts as an attack that has a secondary condition of removing a hit upon sucess.
*cough*
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/866.png)
Yeah, I've never understood that mentality either. A friend of mine used to have a saying when we played cards. If things went his way, he'd say "I must have deserved it." If things didn't go his way he'd say "I must have deserved it." Basically, he felt that since the cards should always be shuffled in a random way, his winning or losing wasn't truly up to him, it was based on the cards he and his opponent drew. I guess Yu-Gi-Oh ruined the competetive edge, since he was always talking about "the heart of the cards." lol
Quote from: Jack on March 02, 2012, 10:49:13 AM
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 10:18:56 AMFrom my understanding most pro players don't bother with AL's unless it acts as an attack that has a secondary condition of removing a hit upon sucess.
*cough*
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/866.png)
I stand corrected, but this AL is one of the very few that actually affects venture, not simply wastes a turn healing a character, who is likely to take another hit right after, so it's still an anomaly amongst AL specials.
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 11:09:33 AM
Yeah, I've never understood that mentality either. A friend of mine used to have a saying when we played cards. If things went his way, he'd say "I must have deserved it." If things didn't go his way he'd say "I must have deserved it." Basically, he felt that since the cards should always be shuffled in a random way, his winning or losing wasn't truly up to him, it was based on the cards he and his opponent drew. I guess Yu-Gi-Oh ruined the competetive edge, since he was always talking about "the heart of the cards." lol
Yeah - another friend of mine loves MTG but flat out refuses to play any games with Dice. He says there is too much chance involved and you are not in control - I usually just laugh and ask how much control you have with the Magic deck and if they manage to stay in order when he suffles ;D He usually gives me a look and moves on to another topic......
lol ...nice... Every game of chance has degrees of sucess. It all simply depends on what you are looking for.
Wow! That post got really interesting! Kudos to ncann for starting it.
We play this game for so long and I don't remember anyone exploring the possibility of removing non-numerical attacks before! But it just seems that is perfectly according to the rules.
Also it turns remove hits in something much better, opening new strategic possibilities.
Quote from: Demacus on March 02, 2012, 09:50:36 AM
Based on these arguements, cards that allow for the removal of hits are almost as powerful as negates, save for the fact that you can play a negate defensively and a removal can only be played as an offensive action, and thus becomes succeptable to negates itself.
On the flip side, if I remove my opponents Warrior's Soul, his team doesn't reclaim their ability to attack.
I don't think "remove hit" cards are almost as powerful as negates. Not even close!
A negate can be used to defend or remove a card played against any character, the team or even the player itself. Most of the "remove hit" cards can only be used to remove hits from the character who played it. And almost every "remove hit" card can only be used to remove a hit from the permanent record, wich turn them useless against cards like "AV" specials.
I guess by removing "Warrior Soul" the "Team may not attack for remainder of battle" effect is also removed.
Quote from: Jack on March 01, 2012, 11:07:19 PM
Excellent rebuttal, my hypothesis is shot down.
So removing hits with Run from slaughter would also remove effects? So MB cards are effectively negated? And it would also remove AV cards as well?
Meta #29 - "... If the hit lands and is later negated, then the subsequent action is not negated if the result is no longer "on the table."
Meta #85 - "The phrase "on the table" refers to any card which is (a) in play (b) placed to any Character (c) in a Character's Permanent Record or (d) in a Character's Hits From Current Battle."
Examples of effects that cannot be negated if a hit is removed or negated (since they are "instant duration" and the results are not in table):
- CU - Acts as a level 7 [power type] attack. If successful, target character must immediately discard 1 placed card.
- GB - Acts as a level 7 [power type] attack. If successful, [character] may move 1 Mission Card from the Defeated Missions Pile to the Reserve Missions Pile.
- LQ - Acts as a level 4 [power type] attack. If successful, may make 1 additional [power type] attack against same Character. Additional attack may not be defended.
MB has game lasting effects "on the table", so I don't see any reasons why the effects shouldn't cease if the card is removed.
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 02, 2012, 08:05:26 AM
Of course, this argument becomes more complicated when you factor in the conditional effects.
I think a simple way around it is specifically defining the rules in this regard.
1. Cards with a secondary condition that affects the opponent remains for the stated duration, or until the card is removed from play.
2. If removed or avoided, cards with a secondary condition that affects the player who played the special should be placed next to the appropriate character to indicate that the effect is still in play until the duration expires or removed in some other way.
Rule #1 is pretty clear. But I can't recall any cards wich rule #2 should be refering. Any specific cards in mind?
Thanks for all this feedback, guys!
What I'm trying to work out is the use of these 3 cards together, and how they might be manipulated to kill some people without the use of a number (to slip past 9-or-less avoids)...
Quote* MASQUE (DQ) <MN> {VR} [OPD]
Target Character's hits to K.O. number is decreased by 5 points for
remainder of game.
* MORLOCK HISTORY (KD) <CL> {R} [OPD]
All Intellect Power Card Hits on Target Character are doubled when
determining Cumulative K.O. for remainder of game. Does not count
toward Venture Total.
* QUICK MIX (CA) <MV> {NA} [OPD]
Quicksilver may switch entire Permanent Record of any two of
Opponents Front Line teammates.
So, more than the question of healing, my question is regarding the effect of a Special when the special is
moved, but not so much if it is
removed.
So, if i've already landed the DQ on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and Marauders have 15 points on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the points off Maurauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the DQ then be transfered to Marauders when the DQ moves?
Similarly, if I have the KD on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and the Marauders have 1I+2I+3I+4I on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the INT Power cards off Marauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the KD then be transfered to Marauders when the KD moves?
Fortunately, the CA card here specifies "Permanent Record" so I can still manipulate things to line up the Current Battle Hits with the Permanent Record Hits (and/or effects), but I want to address the rules of this first here, before I try to execute this strategy.
I don't think the DQ or the KD are placed in the permanent record, I think they are simply "in play" on the character they target, much like when you play Kherubim for Zealot, it simply sits on top of her, not in her permanent record, nor in the placed slot. I think it's kind of an unwritten "cards in play" area. If a special creates an effect on a character that is game lasting, it is in play "here" and not in that characters hits from current battle or permanent record.
I am basing this primarily on the fact that if you actually "Play" a similar card in the OPO game, it rests on top of the character card. I would think the programmer of the game based that card placement on a rule he read somewhere at sometime, but it could simply be a mistake in both cases (his and mine.)
In any case, I think switching 2 characters perm recs would only move the cards with numerical hits that act as damage, since when the game was first created there were almost no effects as described that would last more then a single turn and were simply discarded at the end of battle.
Again, just my 2 cents.
Quote from: Demacus on March 05, 2012, 01:18:45 PM
I don't think the DQ or the KD are placed in the permanent record, I think they are simply "in play" on the character they target, much like when you play Kherubim for Zealot, it simply sits on top of her, not in her permanent record, nor in the placed slot. I think it's kind of an unwritten "cards in play" area. If a special creates an effect on a character that is game lasting, it is in play "here" and not in that characters hits from current battle or permanent record
....
Again, just my 2 cents.
This is my hope, since it creates even more opportunity for this deck I'm conceiving.
Quote from: Demacus on March 05, 2012, 01:18:45 PM
I don't think the DQ or the KD are placed in the permanent record, I think they are simply "in play" on the character they target, much like when you play Kherubim for Zealot, it simply sits on top of her, not in her permanent record, nor in the placed slot. I think it's kind of an unwritten "cards in play" area.
Kherubim its not a good example, because its not an attack. It doesn't affect the opponent or the opponent's characters. If affect Zealot's team's special cards, as adding the text "may not be Negated until Kherubim is Negated" to every special card.
Like I said in my previous post, I still convinced that:
a) ANY SPECIALS (numerical or not) wich affects any of your opponent's Characters are considered attacks;
b) "When an Attack is successful (and it doesn't specify "numerical or non-numerical attack"), the card that was used to make the Attack is left in front of the attacked Character card to indicate that he has taken a Hit"
Quote from: ncannelora on March 05, 2012, 12:17:09 PM
...my question is regarding the effect of a Special when the special is moved...
So, if i've already landed the DQ on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and Marauders have 15 points on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the points off Maurauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the DQ then be transfered to Marauders when the DQ moves?
I guess the effects of the DQ would be transfered to Marauders when the DQ moves.
Quote from: ncannelora on March 05, 2012, 12:17:09 PM
Similarly, if I have the KD on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and the Marauders have 1I+2I+3I+4I on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the INT Power cards off Marauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the KD then be transfered to Marauders when the KD moves?
I guess the effects of the KD would be transfered to Marauders when the KD moves.
My interpretation was just an exercise of filling the gaps from the rules, while not doing anything against the rules itselves.
Those are good points, BIOS, and I can easily agree with them. It's certainly the easiest way to keep track of things and prevents having to maintain some "hidden record" to simply say that, whomever has the hit on them, has the (primary/secondary) effect on them.
While it would make this tentative deck I have, a little more interesting, a convoluted ruling about effects remaining would probably hurt every other deck I have >.<
Besides, there's still the difference between Current Battle and Permanent Record to help with Quicksilver's CA that I'll be using ;)
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/386.png)(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/629.png)(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/797.png)(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/865.png)
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1093.png)
can you ko someone just with those?
Yup. It'd be tricky to pull off, but not impossible.
So if someone uses Captain Britain's KL to discard all cards with "remainer of battle" or "remainder of game" to remove DoW, are you guys saying that the effects remain in play even though the card is gone? That's kind of what I got from the first page on this topic... that only negating will remove the card and it's effects. I have to disagree and think if a card is removed, it's effects should follow it to wherever it goes. I can see it the other way, but it seems a little manipulated in that respect. Maybe I'm wrong.
Quote from: DarKBladE09 on April 12, 2012, 08:17:17 PM
So if someone uses Captain Britain's KL to discard all cards with "remainer of battle" or "remainder of game" to remove DoW, are you guys saying that the effects remain in play even though the card is gone? That's kind of what I got from the first page on this topic... that only negating will remove the card and it's effects. I have to disagree and think if a card is removed, it's effects should follow it to wherever it goes. I can see it the other way, but it seems a little manipulated in that respect. Maybe I'm wrong.
You just didn't read it all. We already discussed that issue.
I'm pretty sure I read it all, and I read it all again after your comment :) I only ask this specific question because DoW wasn't brought up in any scenarios and I wanted people to see how playing in that way would make DoW the ultimate card (even though it kind of alrdy is and people dont normally try to get rid of it in that manner). I had this exact thing done to me not realizing that it could happen. After it did happen, I was very satisfied knowing that DoW could be stopped in some way (I was the one with DoW played on opponent).
Playing Devil's Advocate here... I think that if the creators of overpower meant for card affects to stick around after their corresponding card was removed, they would have told us many years ago. I'm not a fan of inferring rules just because its not explicitly stated. I believe the average overpower player would assume the affects follow the card. Since getting back into the game, I think a lot of "rules" have been created just so people can play cards in the way that they want to and not how they were necessarily meant to be played. Just my opinion... still love the game myself.
Quote from: DarKBladE09 on April 12, 2012, 10:01:38 PM
I'm pretty sure I read it all, and I read it all again after your comment :) I only ask this specific question because DoW wasn't brought up in any scenarios and I wanted people to see how playing in that way would make DoW the ultimate card (even though it kind of alrdy is and people dont normally try to get rid of it in that manner). I had this exact thing done to me not realizing that it could happen. After it did happen, I was very satisfied knowing that DoW could be stopped in some way (I was the one with DoW played on opponent).
Playing Devil's Advocate here... I think that if the creators of overpower meant for card affects to stick around after their corresponding card was removed, they would have told us many years ago. I'm not a fan of inferring rules just because its not explicitly stated. I believe the average overpower player would assume the affects follow the card. Since getting back into the game, I think a lot of "rules" have been created just so people can play cards in the way that they want to and not how they were necessarily meant to be played. Just my opinion... still love the game myself.
and that's ultimately the point BIOS made, and I agree. where the card is, so is the effect. That's pretty much how I've always seen it, too. I didn't expect the topic to go in that direction, exactly. I really just wondered if an effect card like a DQ would move if some one used an CA card to swap records.
Quote from: Bios on March 02, 2012, 09:13:36 PM
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 02, 2012, 08:05:26 AM
Of course, this argument becomes more complicated when you factor in the conditional effects.
I think a simple way around it is specifically defining the rules in this regard.
1. Cards with a secondary condition that affects the opponent remains for the stated duration, or until the card is removed from play.
2. If removed or avoided, cards with a secondary condition that affects the player who played the special should be placed next to the appropriate character to indicate that the effect is still in play until the duration expires or removed in some other way.
Rule #1 is pretty clear. But I can't recall any cards wich rule #2 should be refering. Any specific cards in mind?
I believe rule #2 would be in refference to the MC's and Human Torch's specific AS special, along with other AS that mimic Nova Blast, i.e. Super Scream, Iron Fist, Heavy Artillery, Gotham's Emperor Penguin and High-Speed Impact, since each of these specials have "a secondary condition that affects the player who played the special."
I wonder if the AX specials would also fall under this particular rule. Granted if they are negated, it would negate both parts, but removed/avoided should still incur the hindrance to the attacking character. IMO