I can't remember any other CCG in wich the player must carry "a guide to playing special cards". A rulebook isn't enough? Do we really need to use the guide? The answer is yes, if we are talking about the game the way it is.
Most specials don't have basic information like if it can be used in your offensive turn, defensive turn or both and some specials do not indicate their duration. So we need the guide to check those information in the special's table.
The meta rules were conceived to be general rules to specials. Since many of them are related to a specific group of specials (and not to any special in wich this relation makes sense), they sometimes function as erratas. Some of them are actually erratas disguised as metas! e.g.: Meta #152: Specials which read "Target" (with no qualifier) or "Target Opponent" should read "Target Character". Specials which say "Opponent" without the word "Target" refer to the opponent (not a specific character).
I believe that rewriting the specials with better wording would be enough to get rid of every errata and most of the metas. So we could finally play as written, since what is written is clear and right!
If some specific meta wouldn't be translated into specials texts, it could be kept as a rule and included in the rulebook.
The only problem I see is making some specials too wordy. The solution I suggest could be the same adopted in VS System and also in other CCGs.
VS uses a symbol to indicate that a character can attack from reserve and another one to indicate that a character can attack the opponent's reserve character. Its better than writing "can attack from support row" or "can attack opponent's support row" every time. It's also easier to identify those effects in a card than reading the entire text. VS also uses a symbol to indicate that a card is "ongoing" (game lasting).
With that in mind, I came with those ideas to get rid of the specials guide table:
* Don't pay much attention to the icons, a professional designer could make something much better than what I did. The concept is what really matters, if it makes sense or if it actually don't add any beneficts.
Placing a white triangle above the "two letter code", to indicate that a card can only be used during the defensive turn. A black triangle to indicate it can only be used during the offensive turn. And a B&W if it can be used both ways:
(http://i.imgur.com/AdixH.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/yira5.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/nc3bP.jpg)
A "b" letter inside the icon to indicate the special is battle lasting. And a "g" if its game lasting:
(http://i.imgur.com/WtC4O.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/Yoxj7.jpg)
While those should be enough to get rid of the entire guide, it would be possible to indicate if a card can be played from Reserve by turning the triangle upside-down:
(http://i.imgur.com/ys2HD.jpg)
I'd like to hear some feedback (positive or negative if you didn't like it), and I'd like to hear from BBH too, if possible, since he is the father from "play as written" house rule.
I am a huge fan of this idea, mostly because I'm a huge fan of erasing questions from the mind of the player. A symbol is as good as a statement if everyone is clear on what the symbol represents. I'm all for the idea. Shame it's 13 years too late.
Quote from: Demacus on March 29, 2012, 01:13:36 PM
I'm all for the idea. Shame it's 13 years too late.
I agree 110%. If I enjoyed playing with an all printed deck I would actually make some of this for the guys that I'm teaching - heck I still might
I was actually thinking of using such an overlay for when I make the new OPO (and possibly OPD), though using the bottom right corner to mark them as such. Since this would be globbing all the cards together by card code (and code variant), I can't predict where the code letters would be. The bottom right is always blank for specials so it would be a better marker.
Quote from: Jack on March 29, 2012, 01:20:08 PM
I was actually thinking of using such an overlay for when I make the new OPO (and possibly OPD), though using the bottom right corner to mark them as such. Since this would be globbing all the cards together by card code (and code variant), I can't predict where the code letters would be. The bottom right is always blank for specials so it would be a better marker.
I think adding something like this for OPO is a great idea - I know I would like it if/when I finally get around to playing.
Anyone who knows me, knows how much I HATE >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( the Meta rules.
Along with my friend Lorne, we developed a house rule system that was primarily designed to simplify things as much as possible, while still keeping the essence of the game and opening up strategic options. It works for the most part - though I'm still tweaking here and there. Ultimately, we found that by getting rid of the meta rules and playing the cards as written, you open up a multitude of new options and strategies. There are some errata that must stand for balance, but the # is reduced.
I like your idea about the indicator over the Meta codes - that's fantastic. Alas, it really could only apply to an online version these days - unless someone wants to reprint all the cards. ;)
If you can find a way to add it to your online layout, Jack, that would be cool.
-BBH
As far as the symbols go. I think the triangle works just fine. But I would move the duration indicator either out of the triangle or simply use a different symbol, such as a sillouette of an hourglass or something, to indicate which effects are game lasting, and leave the unmarked ones as simply lasting the battle and being discarded as normal. Also, if the text of the card states that the card can be played from reserve, there is no need for a symbol backing that up. So if the idea is to simply add these symbols to simplify OPO, that would be my 2 cents. If you were planning on reprinting all the cards with the appropriate symbols, and removing unnessassary text, the R in the triangle would be a better use of ink.
Quote from: Demacus on March 29, 2012, 01:59:40 PM
and leave the unmarked ones as simply lasting the battle and being discarded as normal
I like that concept the best here.....mark some but don't get down to marking every single thing we do b/c it could make it as confusing as reading a meta, an errata, and rules, and your mom's shopping list......so on and so forth
This idea is so much genius my head hurts!! I am actually thinking of doing this for my mom, who still gets a little confused by some of the off/def actions. Since she has her own sleeves for her cards (pink ones, too!) I think I can just print and cut out little paper markers and drop them into the sleeve itself.
As for the duration idea, It seems it would be best to have a second icon, like the hourglass that was suggested. Maybe make it half-full for battle, completely full for game?
And about the to/from Reserve, is there a card that can be used that way that isn't already written into the text? I can't think of any...
Quote from: Jack on March 29, 2012, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 29, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
Along with my friend Lorne...
Imaginary friend*... :P
That's funny, because the first thing that came to mind for me was, "There's no WAY that BBH knows Lorne Michaels!"
You know, because that's the toughest part of imagining Lorne Michaels sitting down for a game of Overpower ;D LOL
Wow! Simply genius. I'm also amazed by how simple and wonderful this suggestion is. I can already see how the codes can make the game so much easier to understand. Part of the frustration that my friends feel when I have shown them the game is forgetting or simply being confused about how a card can be play. More often than not its forgetting that a card can be played defensively and them getting frustrated knowing they could have used it. I think I will use small stickers to demonstrate that point on future games.
Wow this is fantastic. I ran into some problems playing with a friend a few weeks ago because he has no idea about the meta rules or anything. I had to argue a ton of time that certain cards could be played defensively, since we had never played that way growing up.
Putting a few symbols on the cards is genius. I agree that the B/G should be moved out, and I liked the hourglass suggestion. How about a half full hourglass for battle lasting and a full hourglass for game lasting?
Quote from: Jack on March 29, 2012, 04:24:27 PM
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 29, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
Along with my friend Lorne...
Imaginary friend*... :P
Yeah, that's the one. Douchebag has only returned one email since last October. >:(
I'd love to take full credit for all the work we did on creating our ruleset... but alas it just wouldn't be true.... :(
-BBH
I am using homemades for illustration purposes only. This post is about using icons to make specials clearer and not about homemades.
I loved the idea of having a second icon as the duration indicator. The hourglass seemed appropriate, but it just isn't very intuitive. Actually there is no "full" hourglass, since it must be half empty, or the sand won't have space to move from a bulb to another.
The solution I found was using a battery. With a fully charged battery indicating a game lasting card, a half empty for battle lasting, while a empty battery means a instant effect.
(http://i.imgur.com/pkGUV.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/yrA0m.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/ORoCu.jpg)
Some cards may have two effects, with different durantion (e.g. CH: Target character must discard all Placed cards and may not attack for remainder of battle. – the firs effect is instant, while the second is battle lasting).
(http://i.imgur.com/TQ1kh.png)
In those cases, the duration icon will always indicate the longest effect, or how long the card stays in play. The effects with shorter durantion will be indicated in card's text.
I also adopted a different concept for numerical attacks, because I think the current definition is not right. Most numerical attacks are listed as "instant duration" in the specials guide. Actually they should be listed as "game lasting", since they are not discarded after play (unless they are defended, of course).
The only problem I see is creating a conflict with KL Special, wich would turn into an universal removal. The solution would be preventing KL to affect numerical hits. Not a big deal, since they still effective against any other specials with lasting durations.
But I think it worths the price, because its much more easier to new players to understand when a card stays in play and when it should be discarded.
(http://i.imgur.com/QNyRf.jpg)
The icons I adopted to indicate offensive or defensive actions are also intuitive (hope so... at least that was the idea!). I am using a shield to indicate "defensive only" and a bomb to indicate "offensive only", while a shield with a bolt indicates "offensive or defensive".
(http://i.imgur.com/0EJl5.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/zZJvI.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/ao8Fc.jpg)
Maybe you noticed small changes in texts too. To improve "play as written" and avoid confusion, I am suppressing unnecessary pieces as "acts as", "may" (as "may" avoid, but not in other cases) or "does not count toward Spectrum KO" for anypower cards (it was just redundant with the general rule.)
excellent hommades i must say
I like the concept of the battery. It would definitely help cut down on the need to pull out the meta rules, and the rules, and whatever else you had to check :P during a game.
On another note:
Truly outstanding homemades Bios - i especially like the Sleepwalker OPD.
Quote from: Bios on April 09, 2012, 08:03:36 PMActually there is no "full" hourglass, since it must be half empty, or the sand won't have space to move from a bulb to another.
Excellent point. Darn you and your real world logic. I like the battery idea, or any kind of scale like that. If only It were twenty years ago and we could actually get these put on the real cards.
Quote from: Kal-el on April 10, 2012, 01:19:22 PM
If only It were twenty years ago and we could actually get these put on the real cards.
Why not? All you need are scissors and some glue! :-P
But its totally applicable in a software version for the game.
The Battery is a great concept for the duration effects! Love the homemades! Just watch the grammer on the cards. Sleepwalkers special is mixing contexts. It should either be "...cards that have been..." or "...card that has been..." In the first instance, Sleepwalker could play multiple cards placed to his teammates, where in the second instance he would have to choose a single card from a single character that he can play. By having it as "...card that have been..." it's kind of confusing as to which instance you were going for. Since it's an OPD I would wager it's the first instance, but cleaning up the text would make it definative. Not trying to nitpick, just letting you know that the text would be the confusing part of that card.
Quote from: Demacus on April 11, 2012, 07:04:40 PM
Just watch the grammer on the cards. Sleepwalkers special is mixing contexts.
...it's kind of confusing
...Not trying to nitpick, just letting you know that the text would be the confusing part of that card.
Thanks for pointing that one out. I will fix it as soon as I get time.
I am not a native speaker, so I really appreciate when someone tells me that something is wrong or confusing in my texts. I use to ask someone when I think some of my ideas aren't clear enough (and breadman has been my main collaborator, or my most frequent victim, since text revision sucks!). But sometimes I just don't realize that something is wrong.
Please feel free to pm me with feedbacks or pointing any problem with my cards.
Quote from: Demacus on April 11, 2012, 07:04:40 PM
It should either be "...cards that have been..." or "...card that has been..." In the first instance, Sleepwalker could play multiple cards placed to his teammates, where in the second instance he would have to choose a single card from a single character that he can play. By having it as "...card that have been..." it's kind of confusing as to which instance you were going for.
I meant ""...cards that have been...".
Quote from: Demacus on April 11, 2012, 07:04:40 PM
Since it's an OPD I would wager it's the first instance, but cleaning up the text would make it definative.
The "battery icon" deals with that doubt. Its game lasting and as long as the card is in play, Sleep may play any cards placed to teammates.
The "bomb icon" indicates it must be played offensivelly. But once its in play, Sleep can play any teammate's specials defensively (its how "playing as written" works, if the general rule doesn't say you can't, so you can do it!).
Sorry Bios. I'll PM you with any further "clean-ups" I catch. That does make Sleepwalker a severely AWESOME card and I would love to have a character or two with a trick so nice. :D
It's scary how close this is to the idea I had. Funny you mention Vs., because I thought the "clock" used for ongoing plot twists could be used for specials that last the duration of the game, while a clock set to an "earlier time" could represent those only lasting the duration of the battle.
Ultimately I imagined four small symbols on the bottom of the special, one "clock," something right next to it to represent "instantaneous," and attack and defense symbols above these, much like you have. You could also use the Vs. method of "brightening" the active ones, so you could leave all four on each card and still tell which were individually applicable.
I wrote a "rule book insert" for the icons, since I am using them in my homemade sets.
I also incorporated some concepts that we discussed in another topic, about how the effects follow the card itself:
http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/index.php?topic=688.0
Of course, none of this is official. Just wanted to share, in case anyone else thinks it's usefull.
(http://i.imgur.com/rCpXF.png)
This thread brings back some interesting memories. I remember playing this in HS, and almost ALWAYS winning our local tournies. There was this one guy that I know I pissed off because he was in his 20/30s, but could rarely beat me even when he'd try to pull some dirty tricks. In his defense he didn't know any better (neither did we).
I remember when he'd:
Negate AG specials. The card doesn't say it can only negate an action and not a reaction, so we (other people in the tourney) would avoid an attack, and he'd negate it.
Use Web Headed Wizard to bring back KO'd heroes. There was one time when the rule book said that they go in the dead pile, so we thought you could resurrect people. He was the only one was subscribed to Wizard so he was the only one to have the card. Then when Scarlet Spider came out he'd use his AO to bring people back as well.
Use the crossing event to kill people. At the time I don't think it was ever said that events affect both teams, so he'd get this card and BANG he'd just chose to kill one of our characters.
I remember calling the OP hotline about the negate thing because that shit just seemed stupid... Looking back I think it's amazing how I managed to beat him so much in spite of these things... he must've been pretty terrible.
Quote from: Hotobu on December 13, 2012, 11:14:07 AMUse Web Headed Wizard to bring back KO'd heroes. There was one time when the rule book said that they go in the dead pile, so we thought you could resurrect people. He was the only one was subscribed to Wizard so he was the only one to have the card. Then when Scarlet Spider came out he'd use his AO to bring people back as well.
That brings back memories. Waaaay back I used to use Scarlet Spider in reserve so I could get two revives with Web-Head and his special. Good times.
Quote from: Bios on July 23, 2012, 07:50:12 PM
I wrote a "rule book insert" for the icons, since I am using them in my homemade sets.
I also incorporated some concepts that we discussed in another topic, about how the effects follow the card itself:
http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/index.php?topic=688.0
Of course, none of this is official. Just wanted to share, in case anyone else thinks it's usefull.
(http://pic)
what about cards that effect the next battle?
NEO OverPower had a similar concept with the icon thing. I really like it. I wanted to bump this thread, and also wanted to ask:
Is that SpiderMan set finished yet!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!?!?!!?!?1?!?!?!?
Quote from: thetrooper27 on May 13, 2013, 09:29:28 PM
NEO OverPower had a similar concept with the icon thing. I really like it. I wanted to bump this thread, and also wanted to ask:
Is that SpiderMan set finished yet!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!?!?!!?!?1?!?!?!?
Any chance of ever seeing this set?