BA: Acts as a level 3 Energy attack. Cannot be defended by a male hero. (BA)
my understanding is that this CAN be negated by a male
this is the only BA that says 'cannot'...the rest all say 'can/may only be defended by...'
also from jack's qna
Question: For Black Cat's Kiss Of Death special, can it still be negated by the male hero it's made on, or another hero? For example, if Deadpool was attacked, could the Reavers negate it? (1998-04-19)
Answer: Anyone can negate any Special unless the Special specifically states that it cannot be defended by a Special card. No restrictions written on the Special card pertain to negates. Therefore, a male character can negate Kiss of Death, even if he is the target of the attack
this is a little too lawyer-y for me to understand...why exactly can a male negate it when it says cannot be defended by a male hero? there's not much getting around that the negate is played defensively, therefore 'defending'.
Quote from: breadmaster on March 29, 2012, 02:17:08 PM
...why exactly can a male negate it when it says cannot be defended by a male hero? there's not much getting around that the negate is played defensively, therefore 'defending'.
I'm wondering the same thing....to me a 'negate' is a defensive action and therefore a male is a no go....
Are you only inquiring about using a negate as a defensive action?
I interpret it so that it could not be negated on the defensive by a male (i.e. "not defended by a male"), but it could be allowed to hit and then negated on a subsequent offensive turn by a male.
Its getting more complicated by the time... If a rulebook, a specials guide and a list of erratas weren't enough, now we also need to look at a QnA list that often contradicts the meta rules?
Meta rule #58 is clear enough to me and I understand that Kiss of Death cannot be negated by a male character, regardless of his sexual orientation.
I'm with Koz on this one. If the attack is in the process of being defended, male characters may not attribute to it's defense. After the hit has landed, any character COULD negate/remove it, provided they have a card that allows them to do so.
I would argue that no, it cannot. Despite that quote (which may or may not pre-date an official ruling to the contrary), my understanding was that defense restrictions block all relevant defenses. A negate played by a male shouldn't stop that card.
Of course, logic and consistency seem to get chucked into the bin with this game so very often. It's much like the argument for using a shift special to move a JW attack. You're not actually defending the attack, just shifting, but the special can't be played. Even though the rules (at the time) clearly stated that a shift was NOT considered to be a defense. (I was shot down when I brought that one up to a judge at a tournament)
Reavers, however, are a team card therefore considered neuter, so you could use the Reavers to negate it.
Koz is right, though, regardless of the defensive issue - taking the hit and removing it is legal in any circumstance, because that's not a defense.
-BBH
Quote from: Demacus on March 29, 2012, 03:02:17 PM
I'm with Koz on this one. If the attack is in the process of being defended, male characters may not attribute to it's defense. After the hit has landed, any character COULD negate/remove it, provided they have a card that allows them to do so.
Whats the grey area on this though? IMO removing the card from your permanent record or offensivley negating it is still defending against that card and IMO that would be a no no for a male.....
You are only defending if the card is currently in the process of being played as an attack. After the attack hits, it's no longer an attack, simply a hit in the current/permanent record, and thus can be removed by anyone because removing is not a defense, it's an offensive action, whether the remove is via a negate, or an AL special.
Quote from: Jesse on March 29, 2012, 03:06:14 PM
Quote from: Demacus on March 29, 2012, 03:02:17 PM
I'm with Koz on this one. If the attack is in the process of being defended, male characters may not attribute to it's defense. After the hit has landed, any character COULD negate/remove it, provided they have a card that allows them to do so.
Whats the grey area on this though? IMO removing the card from your permanent record or offensivley negating it is still defending against that card and IMO that would be a no no for a male.....
Huh? :o
A defensive action
prevents the attack from affecting the intended target. Once an attack has landed it can only be removed if its a duration thing, negated, or 'healed' from through an event or special.
I understand the "wording" I just personally don't agree with it. I think if it says no male it should literally stay no male. I think using an offensive negate is getting around the intent of the card....
It would be similar to Robin's Insignia Dart. You can only defend it with a card containing an Intellect icon. After it hits though, any negate can undo it. If that wasn't the case, BA's would dominate the game to a much greater level. Sure they only hit for 3 dmg, but a spectrum would be super easy with the right teammates.
Where is the opposite of Kiss of Death anyways? Why didn't Gambit get a Lady Killer special? Make it a 3I that cannot be defended by a female character.
Quote from: Demacus on March 29, 2012, 03:19:08 PM
It would be similar to Robin's Insignia Dart. You can only defend it with a card containing an Intellect icon. After it hits though, any negate can undo it. If that wasn't the case, BA's would dominate the game to a much greater level. Sure they only hit for 3 dmg, but a spectrum would be super easy with the right teammates.
Where is the opposite of Kiss of Death anyways? Why didn't Gambit get a Lady Killer special? Make it a 3I that cannot be defended by a female character.
I know and I know there will always be loopholes, I just don't have to enjoy them ;)
as for the Gambit special I would totally agree on that - it would have been a perfect card for him
Right??? If anybody deserves the flip side to Kiss of Death, he's the best candidate.
Quote from: Demacus on March 29, 2012, 03:24:41 PM
Right??? If anybody deserves the flip side to Kiss of Death, he's the best candidate.
I'm sure there are more that could work (not as well)...I mean there are literally generations of man whores in the comics..lol....but Gambit was a smooth ladies man.....i see a custom from ncann in the future, lol.
Quote from: Jesse on March 29, 2012, 03:16:30 PM
I understand the "wording" I just personally don't agree with it. I think if it says no male it should literally stay no male. I think using an offensive negate is getting around the intent of the card....
I think the intent is the
guaranteed hit, which should be set up to finish a character off. After it hits though its like anything else.
Oh and I think poison ivey could have also warrented such a card. 8)
I must agree that I always felt that Miss Isley got gyped with her lethal kiss not being anywhere as nice as the Black Cat's especially since Poison Ivy is way more likely to kiss her opponents then Black Cat.
Quote from: Jesse on March 29, 2012, 03:06:14 PM
Whats the grey area on this though? IMO removing the card from your permanent record or offensivley negating it is still defending against that card and IMO that would be a no no for a male.....
No, because removing a hit is not the same as defending it. A defense is something you do in response to an action. Healing or removing hits after they've landed is not a defense, so the stipulation doesn't apply. The same goes for JW specials which cannot be defended with specials - you can let the hit land, and remove it with a special.
Wording is extremely important. For example: those cards that say may not be 'affected by a card with the word teammate' (JY code) cannot be defended, removed, or shifted by anything that has the word 'teammate.'
That's why it gets frustrating when the wording is not correct and the meta rules contradict the wording.
And yes - Gambit and Poison Ivy would have really benefited from these cards. Though, to be fair, Gambit got and Any Power (8) which really boosts him nicely.
-BBH
I always forget about Full House, mostly cause I only have 1 copy, but yeah. Lol
Quote from: Nostalgic on March 29, 2012, 03:29:09 PM
I think the intent is the guaranteed hit,
You know, I am one stubborn SOB....but that simple wording makes me like the Negate. I hate you ;D
I agree a 1000 times over on Ivy - her only problem in OP was she was manufactured by DC :P
nightwing could have used a man-whore card too
or any card...
Quote from: breadmaster on March 29, 2012, 03:40:28 PM
nightwing could have used a man-whore card too
or any card...
As a huge Nightwing fan I read that first line and shook my head in agreement....then I saw the next line and had a nice little chuckle....
Quote from: Jesse on March 29, 2012, 03:41:58 PM
Quote from: breadmaster on March 29, 2012, 03:40:28 PM
nightwing could have used a man-whore card too
or any card...
As a huge Nightwing fan I read that first line and shook my head in agreement....then I saw the next line and had a nice little chuckle....
I must confess, I did the same.
I've read most of the Nighwing comics and in the first half he is all about Barbara...but take her out of the mix and that man flys back and forth between women like a dollar bill in a strip club.
Quote from: Jesse on March 29, 2012, 03:37:47 PMI agree a 1000 times over on Ivy - her only problem in OP was she was manufactured by DC :P
LOL! True. ;D
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3478367.html
oh dick...
Quote from: breadmaster on March 29, 2012, 04:05:41 PM
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3478367.html
oh dick...
Only one thing I can say to that... :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95SYdjRVCR0
Quote from: Jesse on March 29, 2012, 03:28:45 PM
Quote from: Demacus on March 29, 2012, 03:24:41 PM
Right??? If anybody deserves the flip side to Kiss of Death, he's the best candidate.
I'm sure there are more that could work (not as well)...I mean there are literally generations of man whores in the comics..lol....but Gambit was a smooth ladies man.....i see a custom from ncann in the future, lol.
LOL, in the words of Burton Guster, "You know that's right." I'm totally making this card when I get home tonight!! ;D
As for the rest of this discussion, I agree with the majority, that a man cannot negate the card on the defensive action, but on their offensive action, go right ahead. I also agree that BA cards might be more dominant if they were that permanent.
As to the intent of the card, the name gives it away. It's intent is that it can be a kill card that's very difficult to block (like Longshot's One In A Million). And, despite the fact that it could be negated after the KO, I'm not sure any player would mind since the target would still be KO'd. Obviously, if you had to play it earlier, and it wasn't a kill-shot, then it would be lame to have it removed, but no more lame than any other lv.3, single-icon hit.
oh, and lastly (this is what happens when I miss a good convo ;)) we actually gave this same card to Poison Ivy in our circle's DCIII expansion, only it was a Str attack. We also gave a variant to Catowman called "Aristocat" and we made it a Spectrum lv.1 :D
Quote from: ncannelora on March 29, 2012, 04:50:04 PM
LOL, in the words of Burton Guster, "You know that's right."
That's all that matters ^^^^ as soon as i read that, the comment was complete - NICE!
BTW to the homemade counterparts to this card, I gave Dracula one (although in his main skill) since all of his movies are about him seducing women to death.
And for completion's sake I gave a Lizard a "hatred of mammals" card that cannot be defended by Team Heroes
Sexual orientation? hahahaha