Question that came up in a game I played recently.
I was playing the Dark Phoenix Saga Mission and the "Hell Fire Club Attacked!" event came up.
Event Text:
"Any attack made on a front line hero may be moved to the reserve hero, who may defend."
My question is if an attack is moved in this way, does the "shift rule" apply? Does the attack now count as coming from the teammate it was originally targeting, or the enemy character that originally played it?
There is a Shift Rule that states if an attack is shifted, it is now comming from the teammate the original attack was shifted from? That's kind of counter-intuitive, don't you think?
I would imagine for the mechanics of the game, the shift allowed from the event would be ruled the same as a shift allowed from an AC special, but that just doesn't make sense that a dodged attack would now be comming from the dodger instead of the attacker.
Quote from: Demacus on May 19, 2012, 01:40:13 PM
There is a Shift Rule that states if an attack is shifted, it is now comming from the teammate the original attack was shifted from? That's kind of counter-intuitive, don't you think?
Yes, unfotunately and yes I agree, but it is what it is...
Quote from: Demacus on May 19, 2012, 01:40:13 PM
I would imagine for the mechanics of the game, the shift allowed from the event would be ruled the same as a shift allowed from an AC special, but that just doesn't make sense that a dodged attack would now be comming from the dodger instead of the attacker.
Its one of the reasons an attack can be shifted 'around' a BJ when its being shifted by a teammate to a character with a BJ in play. Mechanics wise you're probably right. That's the way we played it, but I was hoping maybe someone knew/ heard something different as it relates to the event.
So, if I use an AC special to shift an incomming lvl 7E Powercard attack to Domino, then, as a defense for Domino, I play Tripwire and a lvl 7F Powercard, does the 7E hit my teammate that shifted the original attack?
What if I used Bishop's AC to shift the attack ONTO him, then trigger a BS (Tripwire) from a battle site for Bishop's defense. Doed the defended attack still hit the shifter, who would be Bishop, anyways?
Also, if we are to play the cards as written, what's to stop a defender from using the Justice League of America Any Character special from turning the attack back at the attacker? It does state "Attack made on Front Line Character is now made on any other Front Line Character, who may defend"
I understand that the implication and the special coding of AC indicates that it should shift an attack from a defender onto one of the defender's teammates, but it doesn't explicitly SAY that. Shifting is interesting...
Good observations and another reason I wanted to get a clear answer to the question. ;)
We'll see if BBH has any thoughts on this...
from jack's site
The Shift Rule: Attacks may only be shifted once. For example, if Character A and Character B both have a CT Special in play, which shifts all attacks to a different front line character, and they target each other, if the opponent attacks Character A, the attack shifts to Character B but does not shift any further than that. Character B may still defend as normal. Cards shifted to a teammate in this manner are now considered coming from the hero shifting the attack, and not the opponent. Attacks shifted to a charcacter ignore pre-set conditions that dictate how a character can be attacked. For example, an attack is shifted to Character A from Character B. Character A can play the BJ Special, which prevents Character A from being attacked, to avoid the attack. If later the same battle, Character B shifts an attack to Chracter A, the attack ignores the BJ Special and must be defended as normal.
it doesn't exactly answer the original question (is moving with the event considered a shift), but it sheds some light on the reasons for the rule
i'd argue that yes, 'moving' counts as a shift, as the other cards that do the same thing don't explicitly use the word 'shift'
yeah, unfortunately the Event counts as a "shift" and thus, it falls under the Shift Rule. I hate this and it will be my first motion to evaluate in the Rules Committee. It's completely counter intuitive and makes no sense at all in the context of a fight. This was taught to me by BBH on a thread quite awhile ago, when I was talking about using this Event with Strong Guy in Reserve (with his BS-Special). Super-annoyed when he replied, introducing me to the Shift Rule and telling me it also applied to this Event >:(
Quote from: ncannelora on May 19, 2012, 05:44:06 PM
yeah, unfortunately the Event counts as a "shift" and thus, it falls under the Shift Rule. I hate this and it will be my first motion to evaluate in the Rules Committee. It's completely counter intuitive and makes no sense at all in the context of a fight. This was taught to me by BBH on a thread quite awhile ago, when I was talking about using this Event with Strong Guy in Reserve (with his BS-Special). Super-annoyed when he replied, introducing me to the Shift Rule and telling me it also applied to this Event >:(
Well that sucks. So if character A plays a special or uses an Event... :P to shift an attack to a teammate (character B) then attack counts as coming from character A. What if Character B plays the special to shift the attack from character A? Does it still count as coming from character A or does it count as coming from the opponent? (Or is character B attacking himself? :o)
Shift Rule basically makes the original target the new attacker.
Omega Red is attacked and uses Sacrificial Lamb to move it to Wolverine = Omega Red attacked Wolverine.
Omega Red is attacked and Wolverine uses Snikt to move it to himself = Omega Red attacked Wolverine.
This is part of the reason I think you should be able to openly attack yourself. Seems like it shouldn't be both ways :-\
Personally, I don't see why shifting an attack should come from the teammate, and we may need to re-examine that one as well. If Cyclops shoots his eyebeam at Colossus, and it bounces off Colossus's steel skin and hits Magneto, the attack didn't come from Colossus, it came from Cyclops, it just didn't affect Colossus. (referencing a point in time when Colossus was an Acolyte, not an actual event I read in a comic.) Just a hypothetical situation for clarification.
Quote from: Demacus on May 23, 2012, 09:19:18 PM
Personally, I don't see why shifting an attack should come from the teammate, and we may need to re-examine that one as well. If Cyclops shoots his eyebeam at Colossus, and it bounces off Colossus's steel skin and hits Magneto, the attack didn't come from Colossus, it came from Cyclops, it just didn't affect Colossus. (referencing a point in time when Colossus was an Acolyte, not an actual event I read in a comic.) Just a hypothetical situation for clarification.
well, if I had to concede one or the other (changing the shift rule or being able to attack a teammate), i'd change the shift rule (at least this effect of it)...
Though i'd still like to attack Bishop... ;)
lol I hear ya, Ncann. :D
I wanted to ask a question about the game mechanics of a CT special and this seemed to be the most logical place since the topic was on shifting.
Once a CT special is played is it technically a permanent AC special? So each attack goes to character A then shifts to character B due to the special, or do you effectively ignore character A for attack purposes until character B is KO'ed or the special is negated like a permanent BJ special?
correct, it is like a permanent shift
so if character B plays 'acrobatics' or 'charm', it will stop the current attack. any future attacks made on character A will be shifted behind the defense, and character B will have to defend each incoming attack again (or let it hit)
I just wanted to chime in here:
This "shift" rule needs a total revamp. I had never heard of this until I read this thread just now, and this is utterly ridiculous. There's no room for any form of "common sense" with rules like this.
Common sense has never permitted me to even THINK that if I shift an attack that one member of my team is now attacking another. In OverPower YOU CAN'T ATTACK YOUR OWN TEAMMATE! It isn't allowed. So why would this be the case upon defending an attack for your teammate (SNIKT) or moving out of the way to save yourself (Sacrificial Lamb)? The actual attack comes from a single character: The one that initally made the attack. That's it, and it's not logically or rationally up for debate. At. All. If a cat poops on my couch, and my buddy accidentally sits in it, that doesn't mean my buddy now owes me a new couch!!! Or how about this one: The enemy attacks Jubilee and Wolvie SNIKTs and defends for Jubilee. Is Cyclops supposed to kick Jubilee off the team because she turned on Wolverine? Get REEEEAAAL!!! This is the most ridiculous rule I've ever read...MOST RIDICULOUS... because its silly, it can't possibly be what they intended when they made AC's or the event, and its stupid stuff like this that ruined this game in the first place, because there's no way, no way at all, that people didn't fuss about this stuff. This game was designed for us as players to put ourselves into the battle for fantasy purposes, not to bend situations to our favor for the purpose of winning. When you play OverPower, see the fight in your head, and I promise all of these dumb rules will make no sense. You could even role play the fight out for some extra fun! If your goal is a fair game that plays like a superhero fight, you don't need the majority of these stupid rules, and I can't believe that as a community these haven't been changed yet. Why preserve this game as it was when it could be so much better with a few fixes? You don't even have to fix it... just take it out. If you want to preserve the game, think about what they truly wanted for OverPower instead of how people in power without regard for the players wanted it to be. As president of the OverPower community, my first act: OP Stupid Rule Reform. OverPower is complicated because people were good at arguing for wins instead of appreciating objectivity and intuition. Lawmakers do the same thing and it ruins EVERYTHING. They make dumb laws on the spot without thinking about how it's going to effect everyone and without noting prior laws, further restricting/controlling the citizen and complicating our lives, but even worse, giving the lawmakers even more power and a necessity for them to step in everytime there's a hurt feeling over a discrepancy. More and more laws are made because people cheat the system. And so it goes with OverPower. I wanna know where this stupid "shift" law... I mean RULE came from. If any OverPower historians out there can shed some light on why this rule came to be, please inform the public.
because guys like COLOSSUS and thor like to protect their teammates
and i dont know why they werent givin the full AD instead
while guys like the joker like to look out for themselves
here here troop! we certainly don't play with this stupid "new targeting character" shift rule in our circles.
I, sir, will not be either. Since joining the forum I've become more confused about OverPower than I ever was. With the exception of a few things, the game flowed very nicely playing mostly as written.
Trooper,
I'm so glad you voiced your opinion about this matter. I totally agree with you that these rules really take the fun out of the game. In my circle we simply play with common sense and have a great time. Yes certain Meta rules are needed but for the most part we just play with how the cards are written. The fun thing about this game is acting out superhero/villain battles and not constantly worrying about all the minute little stupid rule details. Like you, I get more and more confused about the game each time I come in here, even after playing it for so long. Its not all about winning with us and using trick plays and rules, its just about having fun.