Palatinus' OverPower Forum

Quote from: breadmaster on February 06, 2013, 06:32:48 PM
stumbled accross this baby again

meta 134: If one Special sets up a condition and then a second Special comes along with text that directly contradicts the first Special, then the Special played later takes precedence. On the other hand, Events always override the text of Specials.

this would suggest the 1 intellect could in fact be used to avoid one in a million

No. Again, permission vs. restriction. Otherwise, any card that says "May play 1 additional Special" would override "App. for Destruction" (may not play non-attack specials).

This meta rule is more for modifiers.  Imagine you play this:

First your opponent plays Green Lantern "Let's get medeval": all any-power hits become Strength.
Then your opponent also plays The Hand "Shinobi Shaw": All any-power hits become Intellect.

These two specials directly contradict, and obviously can't both exist at once. So AP hits become I, because Shinobi Shaw was played second.

I'm sure you can come up with more.  Any special that does that that doesn't include "may" or "may not" probably has a contradictory card out there somewhere.

QuoteThis would also mean that the "Do not discard duplicates" Events would allow you to keep duplicates off an HQ Special, contrary to the Special's text...

No. First, I'm pretty sure Do Not Discard Specials was fairly well crippled by a rule somewhere that limited it only to the Draw phase. Second, restriction vs. permission.  Third, you'd still be giving up 2 cards to gain 3, so whoopie? =)

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 12, 2013, 10:30:46 PM
No. First, I'm pretty sure Do Not Discard Specials was fairly well crippled by a rule somewhere that limited it only to the Draw phase. Second, restriction vs. permission.  Third, you'd still be giving up 2 cards to gain 3, so whoopie? =)

first, I don't understand your first point... how was the "keep dup's" Event crippled?

second, I understand your point of permission vs. restriction, and I actually agree with it, except when it comes to Events vs. any other card. IMO, Events are supposed to supersede all other cards. now, if 2 Events were contradicting, then I'd go restrictive vs. permissive. that being said, I still follow the correct rules on this one.

third, if I didn't understand your first point, then your last point may have well been typed in Wingdings 

Quote from: ncannelora on February 13, 2013, 12:16:29 AM

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 12, 2013, 10:30:46 PM
No. First, I'm pretty sure Do Not Discard Specials was fairly well crippled by a rule somewhere that limited it only to the Draw phase. Second, restriction vs. permission.  Third, you'd still be giving up 2 cards to gain 3, so whoopie? =)

Quote from: ncannelora on February 13, 2013, 12:16:29 AM
first, I don't understand your first point... how was the "keep dup's" Event crippled?

Hmm, can't find the rule now so I might be wrong. I thought the event (and whatshisname's special) only allowed you to keep dupes during the initial draw phase, not from subsequent in-battle draws.

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second, I understand your point of permission vs. restriction, and I actually agree with it, except when it comes to Events vs. any other card. IMO, Events are supposed to supersede all other cards. now, if 2 Events were contradicting, then I'd go restrictive vs. permissive. that being said, I still follow the correct rules on this one.

Events only take precedence over contradictory specials, but that's it. Example, event says "Any attack may be shifted to reserve".   Brass' Tracking Computer is a special that says it may not be moved or shifted.  The event does not override that restriction. The attack may not be shifted.

Since Events have the same precedence, two contradictory, they'd obey the "which was played first" rule. I honestly can't think of two events that would match this criteria, though.

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third, if I didn't understand your first point, then your last point may have well been typed in Wingdings 

Just a philosophy. If something extraordinary happens due to a rule loophole or a combo, does it actually give a huge advantage. Look at the the reward verses the chance of it actually happening.

Say you play Keep Duplicates, AND you get to keep dupes from a Draw 3.

You need to get 2 cards in the exact right order.  Back-of-napkin says that, 64 card deck, 8 cards per hand, only about 1/64 chance of that happening. Long odds there.

The reward you get:  You play 2 cards.  You draw 3.  A net gain of 1 card. If your deck is low in dupes, you probably won't even see any benefit. Maybe you get to keep a dupe power card. If your deck is high in dupes, then you will have thrown away far more than 1 card in dupes by that point.

So in the end-- even if the combo ends up working that way, it is fair, balanced, and doesn't break the game. So, "who cares" if it does.

"You play 2 cards. You draw 3."

this is the part I still don't see... I play ONE card, I draw 3... the advantage on an HQ is 2... right?

i don't agree with restriction vs permission, but that doesn't really apply here anyways

-longshot says i can only defend with a 3
-event says i can defend anything with a 1
-they contradict, and the meta says the event overrules the special

to me, the issue is: where do inherents fit in.  as i said before, it's my feeling that they are inbetween the 2.  that is, events override inherents and specials, and inherents override specials.  but since there is no ruling on this (to my knowledge) it's just my interpretation

Quote from: ncannelora on February 13, 2013, 03:57:28 PM
"You play 2 cards. You draw 3."

this is the part I still don't see... I play ONE card, I draw 3... the advantage on an HQ is 2... right?

The card you play that allows you to keep dupes counts as 1 card. The "Draw 3" is one card. Total of cards you played: 2.  Total of cards you draw: 3.  Net total cards gained: 1.

An HQ on its own is a 2 card gain, yes. But to combo it with a Keep Dupes is what I was referring to.

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 14, 2013, 09:12:04 AM

Quote from: ncannelora on February 13, 2013, 03:57:28 PM
"You play 2 cards. You draw 3."

this is the part I still don't see... I play ONE card, I draw 3... the advantage on an HQ is 2... right?

The card you play that allows you to keep dupes counts as 1 card. The "Draw 3" is one card. Total of cards you played: 2.  Total of cards you draw: 3.  Net total cards gained: 1.

An HQ on its own is a 2 card gain, yes. But to combo it with a Keep Dupes is what I was referring to.

Yeah, but that's an Event, which is has DTR anyway. So then it's "playing" 2 cards and getting 4.

Unless you're playing a Special like Cloning Process, but that's set up for a second battle, anyway, so the card advantage would be split between battles and, therefore, difficult to truly calculate.

Also, you said the back-of-napkin math equates to a 1:64 chance of getting dup's, but that's only for getting dup's of a particular pair. Most decks are built (i'd guess) with anything from 8 to 15 such "pairs" which dramatically increases the odds of getting duplicates. If the odds were really, and practically, that low, I don't think the HQ would have that restriction in the first place.

Quote from: ncannelora on February 14, 2013, 09:45:37 AM

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 14, 2013, 09:12:04 AM

Quote from: ncannelora on February 13, 2013, 03:57:28 PM
"You play 2 cards. You draw 3."

this is the part I still don't see... I play ONE card, I draw 3... the advantage on an HQ is 2... right?

The card you play that allows you to keep dupes counts as 1 card. The "Draw 3" is one card. Total of cards you played: 2.  Total of cards you draw: 3.  Net total cards gained: 1.

An HQ on its own is a 2 card gain, yes. But to combo it with a Keep Dupes is what I was referring to.

Quote from: ncannelora on February 14, 2013, 09:45:37 AM
Yeah, but that's an Event, which is has DTR anyway. So then it's "playing" 2 cards and getting 4.

Yeah, that's true for an event. Drawback is you can't control when you play the event. You might not have the HQ. Where a Cloning Processing you can place and wait. Still not a huge advantage, if you factor in the randomness.

Quote from: ncannelora on February 14, 2013, 09:45:37 AM
Unless you're playing a Special like Cloning Process, but that's set up for a second battle, anyway, so the card advantage would be split between battles and, therefore, difficult to truly calculate.

The advantage is still the same, even spread out over 2 hands. The card advantage per hand would change, but not the overall advantage.

Quote from: ncannelora on February 14, 2013, 09:45:37 AM
Also, you said the back-of-napkin math equates to a 1:64 chance of getting dup's, but that's only for getting dup's of a particular pair. Most decks are built (i'd guess) with anything from 8 to 15 such "pairs" which dramatically increases the odds of getting duplicates. If the odds were really, and practically, that low, I don't think the HQ would have that restriction in the first place.

Interesting note: the restriction printed on the HQ should really just be italicized reminder text. The rules (and meta rules) state that every draw is "discard duplicates", unless it says otherwise. So an HQ wouldn't override the ability granted by the Event in any case. The HQ is obeying the rules, and the Event overrides the rules (as cards are oft to do).

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 15, 2013, 01:42:52 PMInteresting note: the restriction printed on the HQ should really just be italicized reminder text. The rules (and meta rules) state that every draw is "discard duplicates", unless it says otherwise. So an HQ wouldn't override the ability granted by the Event in any case. The HQ is obeying the rules, and the Event overrides the rules (as cards are oft to do).

so, are you saying you think that the duplicates should be kept?

This is also noteworthy, I think...

The argument about permission vs. restriction becomes pretty silly when you break down rules. The Event(s) says, "Do not discard any duplicates for this battle." - which is actually a restriction.

Let's say I'm using Robin and I have a level 1 Int Power card, his JA-Special, and his AT-Special, and this Event is in play. If I play the AT and I draw another level 1 Int Power card, I may keep it, per the AT text and the Event. However, from there, I cannot play the JA by discarding the level 1 Int Power card, because it's a duplicate! I would first have to play the other level 1 Int Power card in some other way, so that I have only 1 remaining, so it is no longer a duplicate...

This is when it gets a little silly trying to break down some of these card mechanics. The problem is that language is not the same as math or programming. This is why we still have judges to interpret law. 

Hmmm... interesting discussion.  Getting pretty deep here!  The event preventing discarding duplicates probably is only referring to BEFORE you start slamming each other with attacks or playing HQ's.  That's where the trouble is coming from in this whole situation.  Which duplicates are we not discarding? 

If the event simply read "Do not discard duplicates during the discard phase this battle," then all of these questions wouldn't really matter.  But it doesn't say that... and that's ok.  We can keep duplicates from an HQ, no problem.

Now, even though that's a tricky bit with Robin (the JA and all that), this event as it currently reads under the "events takes precedence over specials" rule shouldn't break the playability of ANY card.  It's not changing activations on special cards or anything like that, it's simply not wanting you to discard duplicate cards.  Discarding to play a card is not even close to the same thing as discarding a card because you have multiples in your hand, which isn't allowed.  The event isn't restricting playing any cards, so if during battle you find yourself wondering if you can play the JA, you should consider that the event isn't restricting discarding for playability.  We could go round and round all day with technicalities and always come up with a new instance in which you could challenge a card/rule.  For instance (and this is ridiculous , but I'm just trying to make a point), you have to discard almost EVERY card after it's played, so with this event any duplicates drawn couldn't be played at all because in order for them to be used, they would have to be discarded when they resolve, and this event (using it as if it prevents playing Surfing the Net because of the level 1 Intellect power card being considered a duplicate) would make your duplicates unusable, and now they would have to be discarded.  If you were to attack with a level one power card, it might be blocked, and would have to be discarded, but this event doesn't permit that, so what happens then?  Or what if I had two AG specials in hand? They would be considered unusable.  I couldn't use either one of them, because after avoiding an attack, they would be discarded to the dead pile, and the event doesn't permit this.  They would both be unusable, and would have to be discarded, but since we can't discard duplicates, even though they're unusable, we're sitting here stuck wondering what we should be doing instead of playing cards.  If this is how the events takes precedence over specials rule would work, then it's not a good rule.  We would all agree that discarding to the dead pile after being used is different than discarding as a duplicate, as well as is discarding to play the JA special, and this event isn't trying to go there with its text, so the JA shouldn't look to the event to see if its allowed to be played.  The event restricts discarding duplicates this battle for the purpose of them being duplicates, and that's it.  I don't think there's anything else to it. 

This is where intuition comes in, and man, for the life of me, there aren't too many cards that a little intuitive interpretation shouldn't solve the problems for.  The meta rules mess that up, though. 

What I'm wondering is what do you fellas propose to SOLVE this particular problem, and where is the ref at with his call?  Jack?

Quote from: breadmaster on February 13, 2013, 04:08:04 PM
i don't agree with restriction vs permission, but that doesn't really apply here anyways

-longshot says i can only defend with a 3
-event says i can defend anything with a 1
-they contradict, and the meta says the event overrules the special

to me, the issue is: where do inherents fit in.  as i said before, it's my feeling that they are inbetween the 2.  that is, events override inherents and specials, and inherents override specials.  but since there is no ruling on this (to my knowledge) it's just my interpretation

Is this correct?

well first, the Events do affect the playability of cards indirectly. If the Event says "No Universe cards may be played this Battle" you cannot play Absorbing Man's KN-Special, even though he's "using" it more than "playing" the card.

Anyway, it seems you and I agree, so I'm not trying to be a pill. Reading too far into some of these rules is what really lead to the fall of Overpower in the first place, and none of us want that for our cherished second home 

- - - -

Back to the original card in question, I really feel like, the only card that should defend this CV, is a plain lv.3 Power card. The only exception to that should be an Event which bends/breaks rules (Lv.1 Int PCs to avoid #attacks; attacks made on FL can be shifted to Reserve; etc).

This is my opinion, who's with me?! 

Quote from: ncannelora on February 16, 2013, 01:46:40 PM
well first, the Events do affect the playability of cards indirectly. If the Event says "No Universe cards may be played this Battle" you cannot play Absorbing Man's KN-Special, even though he's "using" it more than "playing" the card.

I didn't know this.  Wow.  That's dumb.  And I feel like I'm back in OP kindergarten again.  Sometimes, I wonder I understand how to play power cards properly.

For sure the event exceptions... what about if the CV is +2?  

Quote from: ncannelora on February 15, 2013, 03:40:37 PM

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 15, 2013, 01:42:52 PMInteresting note: the restriction printed on the HQ should really just be italicized reminder text. The rules (and meta rules) state that every draw is "discard duplicates", unless it says otherwise. So an HQ wouldn't override the ability granted by the Event in any case. The HQ is obeying the rules, and the Event overrides the rules (as cards are oft to do).

so, are you saying you think that the duplicates should be kept?

This is also noteworthy, I think...

Yes, unless the Event only counts to the pre-battle phase. I can't remember if that is true or not.  If it wasn't for the Meta Rule that clarifies that all draws automatically contain "Discard duplicates", then I would think otherwise. "Discard duplicates" isn't a restriction, because if it wasn't printed, the card would behave exactly the same. "Discard duplicates" is just a re-iteration of the existing rules. Regardless of precedence of events, this isn't a permission vs. restriction situation.

Quote from: ncannelora on February 15, 2013, 03:40:37 PM

The argument about permission vs. restriction becomes pretty silly when you break down rules. The Event(s) says, "Do not discard any duplicates for this battle." - which is actually a restriction.

I would argue that, despite the negative sound of "Do not", this is actually a permission.  It grants you an expanded capacity not otherwise allowed by the rules. A restriction would "You may not keep duplicates".  There are other Do Not that are actually permissions.  Do Not add hits from current battle to permanent record.

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Let's say I'm using Robin and I have a level 1 Int Power card, his JA-Special, and his AT-Special, and this Event is in play. If I play the AT and I draw another level 1 Int Power card, I may keep it, per the AT text and the Event. However, from there, I cannot play the JA by discarding the level 1 Int Power card, because it's a duplicate! I would first have to play the other level 1 Int Power card in some other way, so that I have only 1 remaining, so it is no longer a duplicate...

Ummm... huh?  Why can't you play Robin's Draw 4 with a duplicate 1?  It's an Intellect Power Card playable by Robin.

Quote from: ncannelora on February 15, 2013, 03:40:37 PM

This is when it gets a little silly trying to break down some of these card mechanics. The problem is that language is not the same as math or programming. This is why we still have judges to interpret law. 

Yup, that's why Jack was put on this Earth. =)

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 17, 2013, 12:21:16 PM

Quote from: ncannelora on February 15, 2013, 03:40:37 PM

The argument about permission vs. restriction becomes pretty silly when you break down rules. The Event(s) says, "Do not discard any duplicates for this battle." - which is actually a restriction.

I would argue that, despite the negative sound of "Do not", this is actually a permission.  It grants you an expanded capacity not otherwise allowed by the rules. A restriction would "You may not keep duplicates".  There are other Do Not that are actually permissions.  Do Not add hits from current battle to permanent record.

I hear what you're saying, and I actually agree with it in the "spirit of the law" sense, but that's not the "letter of the law" based on some of the other Events and how they restrict things. e.g.:

Quote* MUTANT REBELS HELD CAPTIVE!  <MC> {R}   Jean Grey & Dark Beast
        No Strength Power cards may be played this battle. Affected Power
            cards are not discarded.

When this is in play, if I draw a few Strength Power cards, I cannot choose to go ahead and discard them, and then play Longshot's Purity of Thought to draw to replace them. The Event isn't "allowing" me to not discard them (for bluffing, or some other reason), it's "restricting" me from discarding them.

(again, I'd like to point out that I do not like this interpretation and in our circle, we actually still discard the unusable cards that we don't place, usually out of sheer frustration  )

Quote from: thetrooper27 on February 16, 2013, 05:09:05 PM
For sure the event exceptions... what about if the CV is +2?  

I would say that makes it nigh-unblockable. 
(for the record, this doesn't bother me like DoW. the OIAM is still blockable if you already had a bonus of your in effect. Also, it's not automatically unblockable, like DoW  )

Quote from: ncannelora on February 18, 2013, 10:35:50 AM

Quote from: halcyon1234 on February 17, 2013, 12:21:16 PM7
I hear what you're saying, and I actually agree with it in the "spirit of the law" sense, but that's not the "letter of the law" based on some of the other Events and how they restrict things. e.g.:

Quote* MUTANT REBELS HELD CAPTIVE!  <MC> {R}   Jean Grey & Dark Beast
        No Strength Power cards may be played this battle. Affected Power
            cards are not discarded.

When this is in play, if I draw a few Strength Power cards, I cannot choose to go ahead and discard them, and then play Longshot's Purity of Thought to draw to replace them. The Event isn't "allowing" me to not discard them (for bluffing, or some other reason), it's "restricting" me from discarding them.

The second sentence is not a restriction. It is overriding the rules and setting a new set of rules. Normally, unusable cards are discarded. This allows you to keep them.  Just because that messes up your Longshot strategy doesn't make it a restriction.

The first sentence is a restriction: it limits the scope of what can be played under the normal ruleset. Of all the cards to be played and actions to be taken in the entire game, there is less than you can normally do. You can't play Strength PC

The second sentence is a permission: it expands the scope of what can be played under the normal ruleset. Of all the cards to be played and actions to be taken in the entire game, there is more than you can normally do. You can keep unusable Strength Power Cards.

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(again, I'd like to point out that I do not like this interpretation and in our circle, we actually still discard the unusable cards that we don't place, usually out of sheer frustration  )

Kinda pick-and-choose there. =)  If it were a tournament, I'd say "Thanks for showing me those cards. Put them back in your hand".  What if I was going second, and my event was Phoenix Risen from the Ashes? I don't want those PC recycled. What if, as you pointed out, were playing Longshot and had Purity of Thought. I don't want to give you extra discards. Etc.

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Quote from: thetrooper27 on February 16, 2013, 05:09:05 PM
For sure the event exceptions... what about if the CV is +2?  

I would say that makes it nigh-unblockable. 
(for the record, this doesn't bother me like DoW. the OIAM is still blockable if you already had a bonus of your in effect. Also, it's not automatically unblockable, like DoW  )

Yup, nigh unblockable. You better hope that you already have a +2 to defense in play for the character being attacked. =)