Palatinus' OverPower Forum

So I was trying to think of a few rules that would make a wider assortment of specials/characters more useful. 

I think of this first rule as the, "We got ya back." rule. 

All offensive specials that cannot be used as a direct attack, or potentially as part of a direct attack, are considered non-universe 'ally' cards.  The rule would affect a card like telepathic unity (BH), but not telepathic coordination (BG)-since it can potentially be combined with an attack. This means once the special is played a teammate must play a follow up special.  If the initial special card played is negated it also prevents a teammate's follow-up special. 

There are a few things to note about the limitations of this rule. It only applies if the special was the first card played in any given sequence of cards. So follow-up specials played would not allow more teammate special follow-ups even if they would normal meet the criteria.  For example, if Psylocke plays Astral Assault, her teammate Cyclops can follow up with Visual Sweep.  However in the same example if the special is not played first due to an another special or ally card being played first then no additional teammate special could be played after Astral Assault.  Another example of the limitation is if Cyclops played  fearless leader, Psylocke could follow up with Astral Assault, but no further specials could be played in that sequence after Astral Assault (It's not the first card in the sequence). 

I think this might help boost specials that affect venture manipulation (AF,BT), character defensive bonuses, powergrid boost,  reveal cards from opponent's hand, allow extra cards to be placed on a character, etc.

Draw to replace any AA, AB,HF specials that are placed pre battle. (These specials seem so basic to a character that I almost feel they're an inherent ability. Sort like one saying, "I can do this all day.") 

Draw to replace any single character defensive shift specials (AC).

AD specials are reworded to say "character or teammate may avoid 1 (whatever power type or value) attack."   (I wonder does this make them worthy enough to add a couple?)

AE specials are considered draw to replace when combined with a power card for an attack.  (Perhaps this could be modified down to 'if defended, draw to replace', but I'm wondering right now is the first option too good or just enough to make them worth it?


What do you guys think?  Any unintended consequences of those additions/changes? Due to the additional 'draw to replace mechanic perhaps the minimum deck size should be increased. Maybe 72 cards?

QuoteDraw to replace any AA, AB,HF specials that are placed pre battle. (These specials seem so basic to a character that I almost feel they're an inherent ability. Sort like one saying, "I can do this all day.") 

This makes me laugh a lot. When we were first getting back into OP, we were trying to think of better ways to make people playable, mostly through new/better inherent abilities. One such I.Ability was for Storm to have duplicate CHAIN LIGHTNING cards. I seriously put, like, 6 in a deck once. What about saying, everyone can keep duplicate AA or AB specials?

In general, though, I like where you're going with this. It's fun to think of ways to get some of the lesser used, but fun effect specials into the games.

I think there are a couple of problems with just keeping duplicates since these are special cards.  They can only be used by one character, and they are small attacks that can't be used for defense.  Putting more in the deck may let you string together several small attacks, but if you don't go first you may be quite vulnerable in any given hand.

I like the 'draw- to-replace-bonus-for–placing' mechanic because it gives the team potential access to more 'community cards'.  More importantly, it also essentially makes the special a free yet predictable card.  This isn't problem because you still can't predict the follow up. This also isn't 'strange' in the comic world as everyone knows Cyclops is going to 'visual sweep', Wolverine is going to 'berserk attack', Punisher is going to 'full auto', etc.  Most of the reason why people don't put certain cards in the deck are due to the 'opportunity cost' of that card taking the spot of something potentially/obviously better. (A single character use,  level 4, attack only verses  a team use, level 4, attack/defense/teamwork follow up)  The 'draw to replace' mechanic removes that problem.   It removes the "verses".

This was why I also came up with the idea of using the 'draw to replace' mechanic for placing basic and training universe cards to a location.  It allows the team to use the card when needed and made card advantage irrelevant.   I think with the limitation of placing up to 3 cards this way it's a really good rule.  I haven't got much positive response here to that idea however.    I suppose people just don't really care to use universe cards period. 

As an aside, the 'ally card mechanic' I would like to give to some special cards makes them more useful because you don't lose 'tempo' when you play them.  I mean if you have Deadpool's 'super spy ' (AJ) and could follow up with Mystique's  'infiltration' (AJ), you just potentially revealed 4 of your opponents cards for one action.  Perhaps you're in a situation where your opponent has 2 cards left and you have 'infiltration' and Deadpool's 'killing machine'.  Well now you could reveal those 2 cards and follow up with an attack or two.  Maybe play Mystique's 'mistaken identity' to switch her hit(s) to Deadpool, and follow up with Deadpool's 'high threshold of pain' or 'regeneration.'  The possibilities are endless.  The key, in my mind, to making the 'less sexy' cards more appealing is the ability to use more of them for one action or use them in conjunction with the sexy cards without penalty.

So what say yee?

Keeping duplicate AA/AB specials wouldn't make me flood my deck, but there are certain people I would definitely use more often if they could do that (Stormy is one of them  ).

Along the lines of making cards more playable, my group does play with one fun mechanic. We draw to replace any AJ coded special played. It gives Spider-Man, Dr.Doom, Batman, and Nightwing a much-needed extra card to use (as well as giving another option for some others). I just really liked the effect of the AJ specials and it made me sad to think that I would never use them under the official rules.

Anyway, I do very much like your idea of the "ally effect" of non-attack special cards.

I like the idea of making the teammate avoids into "teammate or <character>" - but it seems like that might make the "defensive net" strategy a little too strong.

I like the idea of the DTR, but only if you place the AA/AB/HF (what aboug GJ?). That makes you deliberate a little as to whether or not you're going to place one. I mean, if I'm using Wolverine, his AA is not a card I would choose to place.

Also, what's about the AC, exactly? Is that DTR when you place it? or when you use it? Either way is fun, except maybe it should require the same sort of deliberation that the AA/AB/HF(/GJ) cards do?

Fun ideas, though. I'd definitely try it out with you (if I could ever make time to correctly install OPOnline!)

Quote from: ncannelora on March 10, 2011, 12:32:02 PM
I just really liked the effect of the AJ specials and it made me sad to think that I would never use them under the official rules.

I agree and I definitely get using DTR with those cards.  In the context of my other DTRs I think the cool thing about giving the AJ the 'ally effect' is that you can immediately act of the information you gain.  

Quote from: ncannelora on March 10, 2011, 12:32:02 PM
I like the idea of making the teammate avoids into "teammate or <character>" - but it seems like that might make the "defensive net" strategy a little too strong.

That's a good point, and not necessarily what I intend for those cards.  I've also thought about making those count as 'avoid one attack that contains a  E/F/S/I icon.'  That's probably still not enough to get them over the hill, but it would expand their defensive usefulness to teamworks, multipower cards, tactic cards, etc.  Even if only under a battlesite.  

Quote from: ncannelora on March 10, 2011, 12:32:02 PM
I like the idea of the DTR, but only if you place the AA/AB/HF (what aboug GJ?). That makes you deliberate a little as to whether or not you're going to place one. I mean, if I'm using Wolverine, his AA is not a card I would choose to place.

You're right, GJ would be included in that.

The cool thing about using the DTR in conjunction with the 'ally effect' is it increases the strategic options you have for the less used cards depending on what point in the game it is. For example with wolverine if the big attacks and other goodies are already used you may want to place Wolverine's AA for the DTR.  However, if you get it earlier in the game or in the same hand with a better card you'd rather place, you could use the AA as a follow up to another character's special.  Similar to the deapool example of using his 'killing machine' AA I mentioned in the earlier post.

Quote from: ncannelora on March 10, 2011, 12:32:02 PM
Also, what's about the AC, exactly? Is that DTR when you place it? or when you use it? Either way is fun, except maybe it should require the same sort of deliberation that the AA/AB/HF(/GJ) cards do?

My intent for the AC, AE, and AK (forgot about that one in the original post) are for them to be DTR when used.  (I don't want them in direct competition with the AA, AB, etc in placement.) Also the AC would only DTR when a defensive action follows the shifted attack.  

As you know the 'problem' with the AC, AE, and AK cards I'm trying to address is the loss of card advantage for using multiple cards for a single attack or defense.  I don't like the card advantage issue to be the reason someone doesn't want to use a card in a given hand. (Though currently it makes perfect sense not to.)  The overall more strategic (as opposed to tactical) penalty for using multiple cards for individual actions should be that one player may reach his power pack first and arrive at the disadvantage there.  Make sense?

Quote from: ncannelora on March 10, 2011, 12:32:02 PM
Fun ideas, though. I'd definitely try it out with you (if I could ever make time to correctly install OPOnline!)

Yea, I got the OP online and made some decks, not with these rules in mind, but I haven't played an opponet with it yet.

I think these rules emphasize character teamwork, help many characters by making more cards playable, and make the game more dynamic.

This also relates to your thread on Gambit if you think about the impact these rules would have on him. Think about how awesome Gambit would be using the DTR for universe cards placed to locations, the DTR for the listed coded specials, and the 'ally effect' for non-attack specials.  All his 'problems' are solved!   Three of Gambits cards would be general DTR cards; the AA when placed prebattle and the AE and AK when played during battle.    His BJ,CF, and AT specials would all have the 'ally effect'.  I'm actually not sure about his marvels card...probably yes.  I think someone mentioned that Gambit always has a card up his sleeve, and these rules would definitely give you that feel.

As I said earlier I think the minimum deck size should also be increased if these rules are applied.

oh, yeah, about the AE. I don't think they should have DTR. Primarily because both cards stick for damage and venture, and they're separated once they're on a person's record.

so, while they can be avoided with a single defense, I more closely consider that you're getting to make 2 attacks at once. I think they have great KO potential, if timed correctly (even the ones that max at 7). In short, I don't think they need any help.

Quote from: ncannelora on March 10, 2011, 02:40:02 PM
oh, yeah, about the AE. I don't think they should have DTR. Primarily because both cards stick for damage and venture, and they're separated once they're on a person's record.

so, while they can be avoided with a single defense, I more closely consider that you're getting to make 2 attacks at once. I think they have great KO potential, if timed correctly (even the ones that max at 7). In short, I don't think they need any help.

Perhaps not.  The stipulation with those may be DTR if defended, unless they're negated.  I was under the impression from what I've read on this forum that most people didn't use them.  If that's not the case then I'm cool with them 'as is'. 

I think it depends on which AE it is. I'd venture to say that the AE's that can break the 9-barriers are much more likely to see action. So, that would be all of the Any-Power combines, and also for people like Silver Surfer, Punisher, Deadpool, and a few others.

Quote from: ncannelora on March 10, 2011, 05:00:14 PM
I think it depends on which AE it is. I'd venture to say that the AE's that can break the 9-barriers are much more likely to see action. So, that would be all of the Any-Power combines, and also for people like Silver Surfer, Punisher, Deadpool, and a few others.

Good point.  I happen to like those cards, but I thought they weren't as viable for an attack with all the defense gained from a battlesite and whatnot. (Though they're obviously great if they hit.) I think I recall someone discussing AEs elsewhere.  It may have been in one of Onslaught's...longer posts. I'll look through the forum and see if I can find it.  If they already get good use then I'm of the mindset that says, "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."    I wouldn't want to make 2 tiers of rules for the same card used by different characters. I'll probably drop the DTR for the AEs.

My goal was to have a few simple rules mechanics that would make a wider range of cards more viable accross all characters.  I wanted to do it in such a way that it didn't make powerful characters more powerful per say, but make the less used characters more useful across different teams because the 'inherent' flaws in their specials were removed.

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Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:43:53 PM

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Related to my last post, here's a question for ya. 

Do you think Nightwing, probably the worst character in OP  , has a chance with these rules?  He would have 1 DTR when placed, and 4 specials that would have the 'alley effect'.

I think it would definitely make him playable for fans, although there would always be better options than him - from a competetive standpoint. Maybe if you combined this with the Inherent BBH gave him, allowing him to use Batman's 3I attack and Robin's Surfing The 'Net, it would make him even more useful.

For that matter, my buddies and I have been working on a set of DCIII, giving every character 2 additional specials. For Nightwing we gave him a Teammate avoid 9 or less and a 7E BM special. Those definitely make him more playable 

Whenever we get around to finishing off our DCIII series (which we called Infinity Crisis, by the way), I'll post full deets on it.

Quote from: ncannelora on March 11, 2011, 03:29:25 PM
I think it would definitely make him playable for fans, although there would always be better options than him - from a competetive standpoint. Maybe if you combined this with the Inherent BBH gave him, allowing him to use Batman's 3I attack and Robin's Surfing The 'Net, it would make him even more useful.

For that matter, my buddies and I have been working on a set of DCIII, giving every character 2 additional specials. For Nightwing we gave him a Teammate avoid 9 or less and a 7E BM special. Those definitely make him more playable 

Whenever we get around to finishing off our DCIII series (which we called Infinity Crisis, by the way), I'll post full deets on it.

A guy on my facebook, known as Overpower Legion has created a pretty good DC III set, and he plans to have a link to update OP online with his card. His artwork is exquisite. I don't agree with one or two things he did, but for the most part he done some interesting things.

On the topic of AE specials, I agree, battlesites made them a little riskier to play, but DoW takes that risk right out of your hands and puts it back where it belongs... in your opponent!   

Especially characters like Deadpool and Punisher, who's AE specials are major offsuit!

-BBH

Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 11, 2011, 03:40:25 PM

Quote from: ncannelora on March 11, 2011, 03:29:25 PM
I think it would definitely make him playable for fans, although there would always be better options than him - from a competetive standpoint. Maybe if you combined this with the Inherent BBH gave him, allowing him to use Batman's 3I attack and Robin's Surfing The 'Net, it would make him even more useful.

For that matter, my buddies and I have been working on a set of DCIII, giving every character 2 additional specials. For Nightwing we gave him a Teammate avoid 9 or less and a 7E BM special. Those definitely make him more playable 

Whenever we get around to finishing off our DCIII series (which we called Infinity Crisis, by the way), I'll post full deets on it.

A guy on my facebook, known as Overpower Legion has created a pretty good DC III set, and he plans to have a link to update OP online with his card. His artwork is exquisite. I don't agree with one or two things he did, but for the most part he done some interesting things.

On the topic of AE specials, I agree, battlesites made them a little riskier to play, but DoW takes that risk right out of your hands and puts it back where it belongs... in your opponent!   

Especially characters like Deadpool and Punisher, who's AE specials are major offsuit!

-BBH

Sweet! hows about a link?

i like locations that can have an ae put under it