Palatinus' OverPower Forum

Quote from: Jack on September 27, 2011, 12:40:42 PM
If you were to go with the literal text on the card, yes, you can't attack the opponent.

Having BG is fair game because the HG card is not a target. Of course assuming it's in play before FD was played.

QuoteAny attack made on a front line hero may be moved to the reserve hero, who may defend.

So, the FD was moved to the reserve and the reserve chose not to defend. The special:

QuoteOnly Wolverine and Target Character may attack, be attacked or defend this battle. Neither player may concede this battle.

It modifies the condition of the battle and says that the Reserve, who is now the target of the FD, may attack/be attack/defend.

We can't take the text of the cards literally, since so many of them were written poorly and leave too much room for debate (hence the meta rules) 

Also, I disagree about the Event scenario. Let's say it lands on the Reserve, (let's say, Huntress), and isn't defended.
- She has her 6S attack that says it can be played from Reserve. So she does.
- On Wolverine's turn, there is nothing in play that says he may target the Reserve character. While STANDOFF says he may only attack Huntress, she's in Reserve and Wolverine has no cards that can reach her there.
- On the flip side, when it's Huntress' turn again, she may only attack Wolverine, but she has no other valid attacks to make that will reach him from Reserve.

The FD text modifies who can attack, who can be attacked and who can defend for this battle.

Quote from: Jack on September 27, 2011, 01:11:17 PM
The FD text modifies who can attack, who can be attacked and who can defend for this battle.

But they still need a valid attack to use. Just because the FD singles out who can play cards, doesn't mean they get to use whichever cards they want. The cards still have to be playable, and from Reserve, that means a card must specify it's usable from Reserve.

Why doesn't it? The card allows the target to attack just as much as the text for Polaris' inherent allows her to attack while in Reserve (May attack with Energy Power cards while in Reserve.). I don't see any difference between the two.

The reserve not being able to attack is an attribute of the battle. The attribute changes based on inherents, specials, events, artifacts, etc. played during the course of the battle (or previous battles). With the event played, you are changing the fact that you can't shift attacks away from the target character (in this case, to the reserve). With the FD played, you are (possibly) changing: Character Playing Special (CPC) is allowed to attack, CPC is allowed to be attacked, CPC is allowed to defend, Target is allowed to attack, Target is allowed to be attacked, Target is allowed to defend, everyone else loses those rights, and there is no conceding.

I do know that once a Standoff type card (FD) is in play, no other character but the two in combat may take any actions.  But if a card, that affects my team, is in play before the Standoff succeeds (such as Beast or Jean's EB), but is not owned by the character I control in the Standoff (Wolverine, say), my character may not take advantage of the shield on the field?  I don't see why they couldn't utelize the defense that was already on the field.

The card DOES state that "Play during battle.  For remainder of game, any attack made on {x}'s team may be moved to {EB}. "{x}'s team may not defend. {EB} is ko'd after 1 hit."  No where in the card does it state that {x} causes the shift or jumps in to defend, simply that {x} took precautionary steps to help his/her team when they need it most in the future.  I personally would expect this to be a loophole to the FD rules, since it would be in play and in effect prior to the FD. 

If I were playing with Zealot, and I got Kherubim into play, then I Standoff with Wolvie on my next turn, locking in a character with a usable negate in hand, could he retroactively negate the Kherubim after the Standoff hits/as a defensive manuever to the standoff, since he's not targeting Zealot, or would he not be allowed to negate anything that battle and simply hold the negate as a bluff card since he got caught with it in his hand?

I'm also in the school of mind that the Powers-that-were are no longer, and as long as both players agree on how a card should be played in advance, i.e. as written/via meta, ect, then that would go a long way toward ending disputes.

I just remembered bamf!'s strategy when he had 2 BJ cards played on his front line and Neron's CT played on one of the characters with the BJ (Reyes). Attacking Neron moves the attack under the BJ special and thus attacking Reyes.

With that in mind, is there a similar situation with the FD and EB cards?

Quote from: Jack on September 29, 2011, 06:41:12 PM
I just remembered bamf!'s strategy when he had 2 BJ cards played on his front line and Neron's CT played on one of the characters with the BJ (Reyes). Attacking Neron moves the attack under the BJ special and thus attacking Reyes.

With that in mind, is there a similar situation with the FD and EB cards?

I don't think so, since that's part of the double shift rule. That's not what these EB cards do, though (the EB-cards that protect the team, not the individuals). I really don't see why Wolverine can't take advantage of Jean's EB card. Jean isn't defending him. She's doing nothing (in the game). She's completely inactive.

here's another way for me to present the same effects.

Let's say that I play Jean's EB card. Then, my opponent plays Polaris' FN-Special on Jean:

Quote* ENSNARE (FN) <XM> {U} [OPD]
        Target Character may not attack or play Special cards for remainder of
            battle.

That won't prevent Jean's teammates from using her Special, because it's already in play. Jean is no longer taking any action, once that EB is in play. She's not attacking, she's not defending, she's not being attacked or playing any cards.

Or, let's say that Jean and Wolverine are my last two remaining characters. Jean plays the EB card, then dies on her next turn. Wolverine is still free to use the EB card, even though Jean isn't there for him to use it. Once that EB card is in play, it has nothing to do with Jean's character, as an individual.

I was never saying that it was Jean that had anything to do with the special. The special is in play, Jean gets killed, the EB is still in play. The act of moving the attack from Wolverine to the EB card is an act of moving the attack.

Now, is moving the attack a violation of "be attacked"? Moving the attack to the EB card, not the dead Jean.

Quote from: Jack on September 29, 2011, 08:06:19 PM
I was never saying that it was Jean that had anything to do with the special. The special is in play, Jean gets killed, the EB is still in play. The act of moving the attack from Wolverine to the EB card is an act of moving the attack.

Now, is moving the attack a violation of "be attacked"? Moving the attack to the EB card, not the dead Jean.

no, it doesn't violate it any more than attacking any other special would violate it. or attacking the battlesite. The FD Special only places limitations on Characters, not on other cards.

I'll concede my argument, Norm posted on the QNA:

QuoteWith Cosmic Cube (or other similar specials) in play, you have effectively created a game in which Red Skull and the target character are the only ones left in the battle. It is as if the other characters were KO'd for the rest of the battle.

Quote from: Jack on September 29, 2011, 11:54:25 PM
I'll concede my argument, Norm posted on the QNA:

QuoteWith Cosmic Cube (or other similar specials) in play, you have effectively created a game in which Red Skull and the target character are the only ones left in the battle. It is as if the other characters were KO'd for the rest of the battle.

ah! interesting... so, how does this work with the shift-to-reserve scenario? does it work the same way that it works when you put your own last character into Reserve? that it immediately ends the battle and you lose (because you ran away like a coward! )?

(btw, thank you for your thorough research. it's good to know that you have resources beyond my own  )

so, are we in agreement, then? if you have wolverine's Standoff in play, you may not shift attacks to an EB? the violation is you're attacking the special, and the card says "only wolverine and target may attack, be attacked, or play specials." i mean, the Meta Rule ncannelora references only says you have the choice to attack a battlesite or a frontline character, but as a special in play is neither of these, would we not concede that an FN in play makes the battle truly between the CPC and the target?

I'm still not conceding the fact that the reserve is powerless. FD would allow the reserve to attack, it says so in the card.

The EB would still be in play and there's nothing preventing an attack to shift over to EB. My argument was that it was only the two characters in the battle and you couldn't target anything other than your opponent's only character. Norm stated that the situation was that it assumes that other characters were removed from the battle temporarily but everything else was allowed to be targeted.

You were never attacking the special, all EB cards first attack the character(s) in question and are then either automatically shifted (think Brood/Aquaman) or manually shifted (Beast/Jean Grey). The shifting would not violate the "be attacked" clause of the FD because a shift would ignore it.

Quote from: Jack on September 30, 2011, 04:08:27 AM
I'm still not conceding the fact that the reserve is powerless. FD would allow the reserve to attack, it says so in the card.

The EB would still be in play and there's nothing preventing an attack to shift over to EB. My argument was that it was only the two characters in the battle and you couldn't target anything other than your opponent's only character. Norm stated that the situation was that it assumes that other characters were removed from the battle temporarily but everything else was allowed to be targeted.

You were never attacking the special, all EB cards first attack the character(s) in question and are then either automatically shifted (think Brood/Aquaman) or manually shifted (Beast/Jean Grey). The shifting would not violate the "be attacked" clause of the FD because a shift would ignore it.

It really does seem like the simplest, most clear way to explain it is to say that when an FD-Special is in play, the remaining characters (and cards in play on them, or placed to them) are "off limits" for that battle. So, the Battlesite, boost cards, shield cards, etc, are all still effective and affectable.

For the Shift to Reserve thing... I suppose I'll concede that. Honestly, I don't see anything definitive, either way. In practice, I suppose I'd like the ability to shift an incoming STANDOFF to my Reserve and still have a fighting chance. On the flip side, if my own STANDOFF was shifted to my Opponent's Reserve, I'd rather it not simply end the battle.

Sounds solid.  The thing is, when you FD a character in reserve, if the other characters "act as if ko'd for remainder of turn" wouldn't that be the same as saying "temporarily move reserve character into the front line until battle is concluded" since the rest of the team is quietly sitting it out?