The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[CCTelander]

Just thought I'd try to spark some conversation with a couple of questions.

1. What is it about OP that keeps you playing and enjoying it over 10 years after it was discontinued? What's so great about the game?

2. On the other side, what challenges do you percieve with OP that have maybe annoyed or frustrated you over the years. What's "wrong" with the game that you wish had been done differently?

My own answers:

1. One of things that I've always thought was great about OP is the fact that, even though there is a depth of strategy and tactics available that many people miss (to this day you occasionally see some one describe it as "War with Super Heroes." That tends to indicate to me that those people never really played it much), it also has a simplicity to it that's kind of refreshing.

Back when my kids were still young, it was easy to teach them how to play, and they always enjoyed playing in tournaments and just around the house with our OP Buds, even if they didn't win. The game is easy to teach, easy to play, and if you want to go deeper, there really is a LOT more to it than initially meets the eye.

Another thing I've always liked about OP is that the basic rules, set-up, and mechanics are completely unique among CCG/TCGs. When you break out the OP cards you don't feel like you're just playing the same game with a different set of cards, it really is DIFFERENT!

2. This probably won't be too much of a surprise, but one of the things that's annoyed me over the years is the fact that a LOT, heck, almost ALL of the first-string characters are inferior to other, much less prominent characters. Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, most of the actual X-Men, and many others were virtually unplayable compared to other less prominent characters.

I like Heroes for Hire, Starjammers, and the Marauders, as characters, as much as the next comic fan, but it would have been nice if Spidey, Iron Man and those others could have stood toe-to-toe with them.

Well, that's the short version! I could say a lot more, but I'll save some of it for future posts.

OP LIVES!

Chris

[Sonofa777]

1. There is so much I could say about OP. Mostly, when all is said and done, it was hanging out with my friends, telling stories, jokes, eating dinner and beating the snot out of each other in OP. Companionship got me into it and it is what keeps me going to this day.

2. Too many missing characters, certain characters not having certain cards and so forth. My ideas for issues are simple but on a brighter note there is an Ebay seller by the name of JustABgKid that has fixed SO many of my simple issues. If you are looking for some old cards, check him out but the beauty of his sales are the free homemade cards he makes! Absolutely FABULOUS! Check it out! You won't be disappointed!

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/justabgkid_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ

Plus check out his website!

http://justabgkid.com/emporium/homemadeemporiumhome.html

[CCTelander]

1. There is so much I could say about OP. Mostly, when all is said and done, it was hanging out with my friends, telling stories, jokes, eating dinner and beating the snot out of each other in OP. Companionship got me into it and it is what keeps me going to this day.

2. Too many missing characters, certain characters not having certain cards and so forth. My ideas for issues are simple but on a brighter note there is an Ebay seller by the name of JustABgKid that has fixed SO many of my simple issues. If you are looking for some old cards, check him out but the beauty of his sales are the free homemade cards he makes! Absolutely FABULOUS! Check it out! You won't be disappointed!

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/justabgkid_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ

Plus check out his website!

http://justabgkid.com/emporium/homemadeemporiumhome.html

Hey, thanks again for the props! We get such a kick out of OP around here that it isn't even funny!

I agree with you totaly on the social aspects of playng. I get a kick out video gaming and X-Box Live, but it just isn't the same as having a bunch of buds over and playing OP. Pounding each other into gooey red smears, figuratively of course, is a kick too!

Another of the things that has annoyed me over the years was the fact that the OP designers would come up with some really creative card ideas and then just drop the idea. A lot of these never got developed enough to actually become viable strategies, so you were left with one or two great cards out there just taunting you! That's one of the things I've been working on with the Homemades.

OP LIVES!

Chris

[Bios]

1. OP is the best CCG/TCGs that I've ever played. I think its basic rules, set-up and mechanics really rocks! There is no need for "tapping" or "charging" a character in order to use a card and the same character can take many actions in a single battle. It makes the game much more dynamic and real than any other.

2. Two points here:

a.) I tottaly agree with your opinion: "This probably won't be too much of a surprise, but one of the things that's annoyed me over the years is the fact that a LOT, heck, almost ALL of the first-string characters are inferior to other, much less prominent characters. Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, most of the actual X-Men, and many others were virtually unplayable compared to other less prominent characters."

b.) The game designers didn't pay much attention to game balancing,
the Energy based teams are stronger than other power types. The main reason is that only energy has characters "level 8" to defend the team (Spawn and X-Man – not to mention that they were planning to make an avoid from reserve for Dr. Strange!) and most of the defensive characters are concentrated in energy (Invisible Woman, Spider-Woman, Sentinels, Marauders, Xaos, Scarlet Witch and Holocaust).

In my homemade sets, game balancing is the key for fixing the game and the best specials (team avoids and negates) are available for the first-string characters (e.g: Spidey has a "AD" special "team avoid 1-9" named "Friendly Neighborhood", and Wolverine got a "Draw 3 cards" named "Snikt!").

[CCTelander]

Bios:
b.) The game designers didn't pay much attention to game balancing,

In the interests of fairness there's something that probably should be mentioned regarding this point. I can't remember exactly where I read it, maybe over on Ripayuheadoff's OP Site (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/1688/op.htm, but one thing that OP suffered from over its entire run was a lack of a consistent group of designers. As I understand it almost every set had different designers working on it, sometimes several, sometimes as few as just one guy. This situation resulted in all kinds of challenges.

On top of that, Marvel was having some serious financial difficulties at the time. There was probably a lot of pressure on everyone to get whatever project they were working on out as fast as possible in order to keep Marvel from going under. This is pure speculation on my part, but it makes sense given the situation that existed at the time.

Anyway, in all fairness, it may not be that the game designers weren't paying attention to game balancing. It's possible that, given all the chaos that existed back then, they did the best they could.

Just a few thoughts on that.


Bios:
the Energy based teams are stronger than other power types. The main reason is that only energy has characters "level 8" to defend the team (Spawn and X-Man – not to mention that they were planning to make an avoid from reserve for Dr. Strange!) and most of the defensive characters are concentrated in energy (Invisible Woman, Spider-Woman, Sentinels, Marauders, Xaos, Scarlet Witch and Holocaust).

Yeah, after the release of the X-Men Expansion Energy teams did climb to prominence. Of course, before that it was Fighting teams, thanks to Marauders and Vertigo. Just after IQ was released Energy teams were all the rage, and before that it was big, heavy hitting Strength Decks. Intellect Decks have never been all that good.

With a game like OP you'd actually expect a certain amount of this kind of thing, but I agree with what you seem to be saying that it was way too prevalent. Ultimately, the ideal would be for all 4 Skill Types to be balanced, at least to the point that you would have some kind of a chance playing any 1 Skill Type against any of the others.


Bios:
In my homemade sets, game balancing is the key for fixing the game and the best specials (team avoids and negates) are available for the first-string characters (e.g: Spidey has a "AD" special "team avoid 1-9" named "Friendly Neighborhood", and Wolverine got a "Draw 3 cards" named "Snikt!").

We actually have a very detailed, long-range plan for our Homemades that a couple of my OP Buds and I have developed over several years. It'll be a while before it all comes together, but when all is said and done we'll have a situation where virtually every character is playable in some capacity, and there will bee hundreds of new characters to play also. Some of the earlier cards (like a lot of the Absolute Evil cards up at the site currently) don't fit the plan precisely, but they all still work out well,and will merge pretty seamlessly with the newer stuff. Hey, you learn things as you go along!

None of this is all that evident on the site right now since there are a LOT of cards that just aren't up yet, and a lot of descriptive pages that aren't quite done either. It's a BIG job, and I only have so much time I can devote to it.

The "AD" Avoid for Spidey is a good idea. I had similar thoughts, but executed it a little differently. I've actually given Spidey 3 additional cards so far, aside from his card in The Marvels which is also a good card. None are up at the site yet so I'll run them down here in case you're interested.

Spider Strength (HN) Acts as a level 8 Any-Power attack. Does not count toward Spectrum KO.

...Comes Great Responsibility (LO) Teammate may avoid 1 attack made with a Special Card. Spider-Man may draw 1 card from the top of the Draw Pile. Discard if duplicate.

Clonal Carnage (ZH) [OPD] Acts as a level 4 Energy, Strength, Fighting, or Intellect attack. May be made after Opponent concedes battle. Opponent may defend. If defended, Opponent may not concede battle.

Spider-Man gets played a LOT around here! I haven't gotten to Wolverine yet, but a draw 3 certainly isn't a bad card for him!

I know I mentioned it before, but I wanted to repeat that I thought the homemades you posted were among the best I've seen online. I'm 100% behind anyone making their own cards and implementing their own ideas. Whatever it takes to keep OP fresh and alive in your local environment is great as far as I'm concerned. Since there's no "official" environment to be concerned with, the game is pretty much in the hands of anyone who still plays it, and I think there's plenty of room out there for all kinds of ideas wrt homemade cards. Keep up the great work!

OP LIVES!

Chris

[rucker73]

!-  I play Overpower mainly due to my love of comics, and I have always played for the fun of it...  the battling of my favourite characters, and the perfect combination of skill, thought and chance that comes with every hand.

2- I wish more care had been taken with balancing the characters.  I think that they overlooked too many characters in favour of lesser characters (The Enforcers!?!? over Loki?).  Some cards are too powerfull (Negates, Devourer).  I hated that so many average comic characters were made so much more powerful than hero's who deserved it and that the exact same teams would always show up at tournaments.  There were so many cards that just weren't playable, it seemed that the game was being designed by people who had no idea how to play it.

I miss the game and wish that more could have been done with it...  sadly it looks like I will never get my Moon Knight character card I had been hoping for.  I was and still am the guy who tries to use obscure/little used characters in my decks, but predictably I usually get hammered. 

I'll get you again one day Bios!!

[CCTelander]

rucker73
!-  I play Overpower mainly due to my love of comics, and I have always played for the fun of it...  the battling of my favourite characters, and the perfect combination of skill, thought and chance that comes with every hand.

I can't argue with you here. I've been reading and collecting comics since 1965 (yeah, I DO feel old!) and that's always been part of OP's appeal for me too.

rucker73
2- I wish more care had been taken with balancing the characters.

Like I mentioned above, I really do think that the chaos and financial pressures that existed at Marvel at the time contributed significantly to decisions being made that may not have been the most effective decisions. But there's no denying that there are some serious balance issues with OP as it was left when it was discontinued.

rucker73
I think that they overlooked too many characters in favour of lesser characters (The Enforcers!?!? over Loki?).

This never really bothered me since I've always kind of liked many of the lesser known characters, and figured, at the time, that the headliners would eventually make it into OP. Of course, as things worked out, OP didn't last long enough for a lot of those big names to get cards.

As far as Loki goes, you could always check here http://justabgkid.com/emporium/ae-loki.html. 

rucker73
Some cards are too powerfull (Negates, Devourer).

This was a very common belief back in the day, but neither I nor any of the OP players around here ever really bought into it. If there's one thing that 10+ years of playing other games has taught me it's that almost nothing (within reason, of course) is too powerful as long as there are adequate counters provided for it, or, in the case of individual cards, the cost of playing the card itself is sufficiently high, or both.

In the case of Negates, they're not too powerful, in fact, they're an absolutely necessary card IMO. There has to be some way to counter Specials that can't be avoided, and there are a lot of those.

The big problem with Negates was never that they were too powerful IMO, it was that so few characters had them. Out of 228 different characters only EIGHT ( 8 ) actually had a Negate, and 3 of those are Max-6 Characters that never, or almost never got played (Mojo, Mole Man and Serpent Society). Even if you add the 5 characters that have the "DO" coded personal Negates it doesn't improve the situation. Only 1 of those, Maggot, is even close to playable, and he's a Max-6 Character which brings with it a whole slew of additional challenges.

So, you've got 2 characters with a 7 in Energy (Holocaust, Scarlet Witch), 1 with a 7 in Fighting (Reavers), one Intellect or Strength (Beast or Beast: The Brute), and X-Babies. Add to this the fact that Marauders were the ONLY character with an "LN" (Vertigo), their 7s were in Energy & Fighting, and the Shift mechanic was a very useful tactic, and you're pretty much guaranteed to see these few characters all the time. They're the only existing characters that have what you need to counter the few viable strategies that existed (Rush, heavy Defense and Card Advantage), and at the same time are capable of using them.

Just giving another 20-30 carefully chosen characters negates would have dramatically expanded the variety of characters that actually got played, and would also have expanded the viable strategy options available a little bit.

Devourer MAY have needed a bit of an additional cost to play, but I'm of the opinion that the real problem here wasn't that the card was too powerful, but that there just weren't adequate counters provided to balance it out. I think that a card like Devourer was a necessary addition to OP, since a way to counter the couple of Battlesites that were actually playable was needed. Giving more characters Negates would definitely tone Devourer of Worlds down a bit.

rucker73
I hated that so many average comic characters were made so much more powerful than hero's who deserved it

No argument here. We're doing a LOT to correct this issue with our Homemade Cards.

rucker73
and that the exact same teams would always show up at tournaments.

IMO this is a function of the fact that there were really only 3 overall strategies that actually worked. Increase the number of viable strategies and you automatically increase the variety of decks. Also, some of the above challenges contributed to this issue dramatically.

rucker73
There were so many cards that just weren't playable, it seemed that the game was being designed by people who had no idea how to play it.

In designing our Homemade Cards we're finding that a LOT of cards that we'd previously considered merely so-so or worthless are actually pretty good, IF you provide the additional support necessary to help them contribute to some overall viable strategy. There are LOTS of cards in OP that could form the basis of really cool strategies, but the idea never got developed far enough in the game to make it happen. I think that a lot of this happened because there was never a consistent design team working on the game. Designers changed from set to set, so good ideas just got forgotten.

rucker73
I miss the game and wish that more could have been done with it...  sadly it looks like I will never get my Moon Knight character card I had been hoping for.

Moon Knight? maybe you'll get a kick out of this http://justabgkid.com/emporium/av-moonknight.html.

rucker73
I was and still am the guy who tries to use obscure/little used characters in my decks, but predictably I usually get hammered. 

Around here we LOVE trying off-the-wall ideas and characters. It's true that in the past they usually got crushed by other more mainstream decks, but wouldn't it be cool if they could actually hold their own, even aginst some of the powerhouse decks that used to be all the rage?

I've recently built successful decks that included such previously unplayable characters as: Mojo, Silver Sable, Cable, Domino, Azrael, Black Cat, Elektra, Storm Scorpion, Apocalypse, and even Spider-Man. But those decks are only possible because of our Homemade Cards and a few house rules that we use.

OP LIVES!

Chris

[CCTelander]

Again, just wondering if any of the newer members have any thoughts on this topic.

[Karmanal of Zert]

This game is addictive to me for it's seemingly endless deck possibilities and potential strategies. I've never played any card game - or other game, for that matter - where there are so many different ways to go about winning. Also as others said being a comics fan of course makes it more fun; whatever hero you happen to be reading a lot of lately or is your favorite at the moment can be pulled out and have a deck built around them, and boom, you're fighting with your favorite super-hero (or villain). There's also lots of room for people who are still fans to come up with new cards and new heroes, which gives it staying power for me. Michael Moorcock is one of my favorite authors, if I wanted to I could make a Corum (my fav MM character) hero and specials and have him fight Venom or Brainiac - how cool is that? Eventually I want to make hero cards for Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation whose specials would be Capt. Kirk, Mr. Spock, Lt. Cmdr. Worf, etc. A Darth Vader hero would be nuts. I'm working on Conan card ideas right now. Not only does Overpower have an almost infinite number of possibilities in and of itself, but as I said we as fans are free to add to the game as we see fit to keep it interesting.

My two chief cons have already been vented in this thread and elsewhere on these boards, and they are the uselessness of BUs, Double-Shots, etc. and also the uselessness of Wolverine, Spider-Man, etc. as playable characters. Almost everyone who came out in the first expansion or two (as with the first DC expansion) had mostly useless specials. DC is almost worse, which really sucks for me because DC is kind of my specialty in OP (although I'm much more familiar with Marvel comics characters). Also your favorite characters getting stats that make no sense really sucks. A perfect example for me as a huge Thor fan is how in the original Overpower set he got a 4 Energy. The freaking God of Thunder. *forehead smack

[BigBadHarve]

Just thought I'd try to spark some conversation with a couple of questions.

1. What is it about OP that keeps you playing and enjoying it over 10 years after it was discontinued? What's so great about the game?

2. On the other side, what challenges do you percieve with OP that have maybe annoyed or frustrated you over the years. What's "wrong" with the game that you wish had been done differently?



OP LIVES!

Chris

Hello everyone! Big Bad Harve here, new to the board. Another person still clinging to the non-existent hope that someone will come across the OverPower Property and say "Hey, lets' bring this back!"   

My answers:

1. I hate CCGs, generally speaking. Friends tried to get me into Magic, but it never took. Overpower I loved. There was such variety and potential. I particularly liked making up the Homebases that everyone else wrote off as garbage, and making them work. (My Avengers Mansion team is surprisingly tough, espeically if you add the 'Marvels' cards.)

Even after ten years I still play, albeit sparingly, when I can. Recruiting new people is brutal, but a friend of mine from the old days is still has obsessed as I am so we get a few solid games in here and there. (Our common thing is to set a day or two aside once every few months, build 4 decks each, and square off in a round robin, every deck facing every deck. We usually end up tied overall, interestingly enough)

2. There was a lot broken about the game. Shortchanged characters notwithstanding, the core issue I had was that the people who made the game had no idea of how to balance things. They kept coming up with contradicting cards and ambiguous rules that got more an more perplexing. Cards would say one thing, but then someone would complain that a card was too powerful and suddenly it meant something else that wasn't in the text. The worst were the meta-rules: a massive book of unnecessary nitpicking for each card. Argh!!! Trying to teach new players was a pain in the butt.

They needed simplify the game, and go back to the basics of any CCG - play the cards as written. Yes, some errata would certainly be required, but only a handful (10 or 11, by my count) and suddenly you have a brand new game, that's easy to learn and has a whole variety of previously unknown options. (Certain specials become a lot more playable, too.)

But enough about that. I can rant about that another time.

Cheers!

-BBH

[CCTelander]

Just thought I'd try to spark some conversation with a couple of questions.

1. What is it about OP that keeps you playing and enjoying it over 10 years after it was discontinued? What's so great about the game?

2. On the other side, what challenges do you percieve with OP that have maybe annoyed or frustrated you over the years. What's "wrong" with the game that you wish had been done differently?



OP LIVES!

Chris

Hello everyone! Big Bad Harve here, new to the board. Another person still clinging to the non-existent hope that someone will come across the OverPower Property and say "Hey, lets' bring this back!"   

My answers:

1. I hate CCGs, generally speaking. Friends tried to get me into Magic, but it never took. Overpower I loved. There was such variety and potential. I particularly liked making up the Homebases that everyone else wrote off as garbage, and making them work. (My Avengers Mansion team is surprisingly tough, espeically if you add the 'Marvels' cards.)

Even after ten years I still play, albeit sparingly, when I can. Recruiting new people is brutal, but a friend of mine from the old days is still has obsessed as I am so we get a few solid games in here and there. (Our common thing is to set a day or two aside once every few months, build 4 decks each, and square off in a round robin, every deck facing every deck. We usually end up tied overall, interestingly enough)

2. There was a lot broken about the game. Shortchanged characters notwithstanding, the core issue I had was that the people who made the game had no idea of how to balance things. They kept coming up with contradicting cards and ambiguous rules that got more an more perplexing. Cards would say one thing, but then someone would complain that a card was too powerful and suddenly it meant something else that wasn't in the text. The worst were the meta-rules: a massive book of unnecessary nitpicking for each card. Argh!!! Trying to teach new players was a pain in the butt.

They needed simplify the game, and go back to the basics of any CCG - play the cards as written. Yes, some errata would certainly be required, but only a handful (10 or 11, by my count) and suddenly you have a brand new game, that's easy to learn and has a whole variety of previously unknown options. (Certain specials become a lot more playable, too.)

But enough about that. I can rant about that another time.

Cheers!

-BBH

Yeah, there were all kinds of rules problems and paradoxes back in the day. Most of those, I think, were caused by poor officiating more than anything in the basic design of the game though.

As far as cards being too powerful goes, I don't think there really were/are any. They just appear so at times because there are quite a few cards/characters that are so clearly sub-par.