'Dead is Dead' or just hard to kill?

[DiceK]

Here's a hypothetical:

1.  Get rid of DiD
2.  Include the use of Marvels

Are X-Babies Decks still going to Dominate in any way shape or form?  Obviously, Vertigo needs to be played offensively.

[gameplan.exe]

Here's a hypothetical:

1.  Get rid of DiD
2.  Include the use of Marvels

Are X-Babies Decks still going to Dominate in any way shape or form?  Obviously, Vertigo needs to be played offensively.

I simply don't think so. Honestly, as obnoxious as it is to have X-Babies absorbing your Power Pack, it still seems like the focus should then be on winning Venture anyway. Who cares if they live forever if you can win Venture before ever getting to the Power Pack?

[Demacus]

Here's a hypothetical:

1.  Get rid of DiD
2.  Include the use of Marvels

Are X-Babies Decks still going to Dominate in any way shape or form?  Obviously, Vertigo needs to be played offensively.

I simply don't think so. Honestly, as obnoxious as it is to have X-Babies absorbing your Power Pack, it still seems like the focus should then be on winning Venture anyway. Who cares if they live forever if you can win Venture before ever getting to the Power Pack?

These are pretty valid points, and honestly, if you are terrified of "unkillable due to I.A." there are characters with specials that knock off I.A.'s for a battle.  Start using those.  DiD might have been necessary back in the day, but characters were created with checks so that they could be killed.  If you don't bring one to the party these days, you are kinda asking to deal with unkillable babies or Grunge.

[DiceK]

I think DiD really limits your ability to make decks w/ certain characters.  Take the Location "Ship" for example.  Hit's to KO goes to 25.  What's the point of ever wanting to play a team on that Location? 

[BigBadHarve]

I think DiD really limits your ability to make decks w/ certain characters.  Take the Location "Ship" for example.  Hit's to KO goes to 25.  What's the point of ever wanting to play a team on that Location? 

DiD has zero effect on Ship - unless you planned to add a spectrum resistant special to a battlesite.

DiD only applies when BOTH conditions have been met. Using Ship as an example - a spectrum KO will kill any of those characters regardless of their cumulative value.

Likewise with Morbius who can only be KO'd with 30. A normal spectrum kills him in any case.

Deadpool suffers only slightly, if you use his High Threshold of Pain. Suddenly two icons and more than 20 points of cumulative means a multipower power card WILL spectrum KO him. But he's still immune to multies if he's below 20 pts.

Really, the DiD only comes up with the X-babies, Grunge, and situations where people try and make a character completely unkillable via special card combinations.

It's a balanced and fair rule that does not really limit any deck, except those trying to create an unfair exploit.

As for the unkillable babies - it's extremely frustrating. With stat boosting artifacts, an unkillable X-babies can be a little too much. They are already a key staple in so many decks, the last thing we need is yet another incentive to include them. The DiD rule curbs that quite nicely.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

... As for the unkillable babies - it's extremely frustrating. With stat boosting artifacts, an unkillable X-babies can be a little too much. They are already a key staple in so many decks, the last thing we need is yet another incentive to include them. The DiD rule curbs that quite nicely.

-BBH

I suppose this is true and it's another case where I don't see it because of my circle. We really don't use X-Babies that often.

[Demacus]

As for the unkillable babies - it's extremely frustrating. With stat boosting artifacts, an unkillable X-babies can be a little too much. They are already a key staple in so many decks, the last thing we need is yet another incentive to include them. The DiD rule curbs that quite nicely.

-BBH

This right here is kind of my point.  If there is a problem with 1 character, errata that character.  A blanket rule that affects everyone is not usually the right call in these instances.  Yes, Grunge is also guilty and anyone who happens to both benefit from Android Endurance and Pile It On at the same time, but these are 4 instances where there is an unkillable character and I feel that DiD should only be applied in that precise instance.  If I had been an official of this game back then, I would have pushed hard to simply ban the unkillable characters from pro-tournaments and simply leave them out there as fun characters for those who just want to play with them.  If I recall, but I might have been misinformed on this since I never did play pro-circut,  Beyonder was not always legal at tournaments. 

I know I won't change your mind on this ruling, but you kind of made the point I've been driving at for this thread for me.

[BigBadHarve]

This right here is kind of my point.  If there is a problem with 1 character, errata that character.  A blanket rule that affects everyone is not usually the right call in these instances.  Yes, Grunge is also guilty and anyone who happens to both benefit from Android Endurance and Pile It On at the same time, but these are 4 instances where there is an unkillable character and I feel that DiD should only be applied in that precise instance.  If I had been an official of this game back then, I would have pushed hard to simply ban the unkillable characters from pro-tournaments and simply leave them out there as fun characters for those who just want to play with them.  If I recall, but I might have been misinformed on this since I never did play pro-circut,  Beyonder was not always legal at tournaments. 

I know I won't change your mind on this ruling, but you kind of made the point I've been driving at for this thread for me.

Part of the problem with the game is that there are too many specific errata that only apply to a handful of cards, far too many. It began to bog things down. Ever try teaching a new player the game? It's a pain in the ass.

New Player: "I play this card."
OP Teacher: "Oh, um... sorry that card actually does THIS..."
New Player: "But that's not what it says..."
OP Teacher: "Yeah, they made an errata."


Sinple, blanket rules are easier to utilize and remember. Unfortunately the game is also plagued with 'so-called' blanket rules that aren't really blanket rules. The Duration rule is the perfect example:

"Any card with no printed duration is considered to be A) 'Game lasting' if OPD or B) Battle lasting if non-OPD."

That's a great rule! When I first heard that, I thought that was the most brilliant new rule they could implement. It affected so many cards and made them playable! Brood: Brood Spawn and Aquaman: Allies from the deep became more useful. Sabretooth: Blood hunt now gave Sabretooth the ability to make free attacks every time the opponent conceded... Carnage got the same thing too. Omega Red's Carbonadium synthesizer now became a game lasting special... there's more but you get the idea.

THEN, I found out that it didn't apply to those cards. It only applied to a select few cards. In fact, it applied to so few cards, they might as well have made it a card specific errata. It was brought in to curb the use of Social Outcast and Twisted Mentality, so that Mole Man and Leader decks wouldn't become the norm. People in my circles were using those guys because of those cards.

The fact that DiD is pretty much the only blanket rule that cannot be altered is one of the reasons it's such a good rule.

Banning cards is highly uneccesary and less appealing than a blanket rule that balances the overall game. I don't want the X-babies or Grunge removed, both bring great strategic options to the table. But creating a fair rule that curbed the abuse solved the problem perfectly. It didn't remove them from circulation, but neither does it create unfair situations.

Also remember, the rule wasn't made from the point of view that the game was going to die. The rule was made from the point of view that there were going to be many more sets of new cards, with an unpredictable variety of new options. Establishing such a rule automatically prevented any further abuse on that level.

Making the 'unkillable' character through specials or whatnot is an interesting strategy (3 stat Magneto with Asteroid M as a homebase and Android endurance from a site, for example. Try that and throw in some image inducers, see how much fun that is for an opponent.), and generally my view is the more strategic options, the better. So yes, DiD does remove one possible strategy which is a little unfortunate. But the level of fairness it brings in to the overall balance of the game is well worth it. And that's really the issue at hand. Overall game balance. They made so many rules, and produced so many cards that totally killed that balance, that it was nice to see one that stepped back in the right direction.

On another topic - are you ever online anymore? It seems a few people are inquiring about OPO again, might be nice to get our online gaming community going again...

-BBH

[Demacus]

I will concede the arguement to you BBH, but I still don't like it.  lol  As far as my play availability, things at work have been haywire for a while and my schedule is still chaotic, as I don't know more then 2-3 days in advance if I will be working a certain day or certain time.  We had a manager and his assistance just kind of walk out and since then the district manager has been working to fill the vacuum their departure created while I have been chosen to fill the vacuum left by the D.M.'s solution to the vacuum at the one store.  lol  Long story short, I'm an assistant manager without a home store, but report to any of 3 different stores, as needed.  As soon as I have a set schedule again, I'll start popping back onto MSN.