Great Comebacks!

[Hot Rod]

I'll see what I can build.

I'm not as worried about a "Bet 7" type of deck as I am about making a top tier deck better.  This was a problem Yu-Gi-OH had: you could make a deck to counter a top tier deck, but in a tournament it wouldn't be the top tier deck that would beat you, it would be the 2nd tier deck.

I figure a top tier deck should have about a 55-60% win rate with the rest (say 5-10%) coming from the player.  If a deck manages a 70% or better (7 out of 10) across the field it's absolutely broken.

And yeah, I feel every searched out card should be shown, plus I think both players should be able to search each others dead piles at will.  Anything that inhibits cheating is a good thing for the most part.  The cheating in Yu-Gi-Oh was brutal, I remember getting completely sacked (most likely stacked as well) by a guy at a major tournament (100 people, I was pairing #2.) going into the final round; the first game was 1 turn, the 2nd game was 2.

[Onslaught]

To combine the discussion about the strength of battlesites, the strength of Any Heroes, and playing Leech as written...

One of the cooler things about battlesites was that it let you use some of the more interesting cards that belonged to weaker characters. There's no way in hell I'm going to use Post in a deck, but using him through a battlesite keeps a unique effect like "Gather Info" from going to waste. Similarly, it lets you use more of your favorite characters at once. If you are a big Spidey fan but want to use an energy deck, you can always throw some Spider-Man activators from a battlesite.

Through this ability to use some of the more fancy effects from a battlesite, mini-combos became part of the game. Obfuscate from a battlesite with Fatal Attractions. Wisecrack with Finite Power or an effect to prevent conceding. Little synergistic interactions like this were good for the game I think, though they made Any Heroes feel "plain" in comparison.

The huge complaint about the game back in the old newsgroup days was that special cards that weren't big attacks were all useless. Most people played no more than 2 or 3 specials per character, because the majority of specials were viewed as worthless. In fact, some people ignored the fact that having something like a level 6 special and a level 6 powercard in the same hand would be valuable for pushing through damage - and would go as far as saying that if specials weren't higher than 7 that they weren't usable. There was some logic behind this (if you give a weighted value to a card that takes into account the % chance you'll be able to use it when you draw it, the average venture of an 8 strength powercard in a deck with Thing/Hulk/Namor is around 7+, while something like a level 7 special is only 3.5 or so).

So, the big raging debate was how to make more than just single stat decks viable. Naturally, dual color decks are better at spectrum KOing and will be better at winning venture due to being able to hold a higher amount of teamworks. The downside of these decks were that they would have a lot more unusable cards when a character died (and characters died fast back then!). Single stat decks were just more consistent since they only lost 2 or 3 unusable cards when somebody was KO'ed, not to mention their ability to load up on level 8 powercards. People wanted more differentiation amongst characters by having good specials that weren't just a high level attack. They also wanted grids to matter less (many people felt that the grid was the ONLY thing that mattered when selecting a character, which made things seem grim since there were only a small amount of possible combinations for 3 stats).

Well, all these wishes came true. Inherent abilities and more dual stat characters (thanks to the Intellect stat) blew things wide open. Not only did grids begin to matter less (I'd play a 1-1-1-1 character if his inherent ability gave the team +4 to venture per turn and he had a set of Marauders specials), but there were more and more "effect based" specials. This was a good thing - the game would have become very stale if it was just constantly trading high level attack cards.

So, how does all this all tie together? The fundamental change in the game from big grids/big attacks to "good effects matter the most" (with an undercurrent of "it's easier to keep characters alive longer either via shifting for an era or the modern environment of defensive nets) did only one thing negative in my opinion - it made a negate character a necessity in 90% of decks. If you have a really fast Heroes for Hire based deck that can KO mini-combo characters quickly, or a defensive deck with Invisible Woman, you can probably squeak by without a negate character. If you don't have a negate character, a battlesite also becomes mandatory.

Four Freedoms is still a powerhouse deck in certain matchups. If you are trying to win by playing lots of attacks, you are probably going to lose to FF Plaza. However, try playing FF against a deck with the Starjammers. Keeyah and Raza are going to eat you alive, not to mention any other effect based specials the team might be running. Now, whether or not it's a good or bad thing that the current environment is mostly anchored around needing a negate character is up for debate. A common complaint was that more characters should have had a negate, that way you wouldn't be restricted to choosing from three or four staple characters when making a deck. I don't even know if that would have changed things too much. Also, if too many people start having negates, then you can start making negate nets without sacrificing other things like the modern dual negate decks must do. Personally, I don't mind negates being so important right now, they are kind of like the glue to the format. Furthermore, it is cool when you are able to come up with a team that can function without a negate - it feels like a little secret that you've managed to sneak into the game.

Taking all that into account, it would be a very bad thing if you made the game even more anchored around negate characters. Making Leech play by its original text (or allowing it to be retrieved by BQ) just makes negate characters even more essential, which just leads to a more homogenized and ultimately boring format.

[Hot Rod]

I agree about needing dual negates to have any chance at consistently beating a BQ-able old leech.  A format requiring dual negates with only 15+1 negate characters might be the lamest format seen yet.

[BigBadHarve]

Hey Onslaught! Thanks for weighing in...

To combine the discussion about the strength of battlesites, the strength of Any Heroes, and playing Leech as written...

One of the cooler things about battlesites was that it let you use some of the more interesting cards that belonged to weaker characters. There's no way in hell I'm going to use Post in a deck, but using him through a battlesite keeps a unique effect like "Gather Info" from going to waste. Similarly, it lets you use more of your favorite characters at once. If you are a big Spidey fan but want to use an energy deck, you can always throw some Spider-Man activators from a battlesite.

Agreed. I love battlesites for the variety they provide, as well as making use of some underused (read: NEVER) cards.

Well, all these wishes came true. Inherent abilities and more dual stat characters (thanks to the Intellect stat) blew things wide open. Not only did grids begin to matter less (I'd play a 1-1-1-1 character if his inherent ability gave the team +4 to venture per turn and he had a set of Marauders specials), but there were more and more "effect based" specials. This was a good thing - the game would have become very stale if it was just constantly trading high level attack cards.

So, how does all this all tie together? The fundamental change in the game from big grids/big attacks to "good effects matter the most" (with an undercurrent of "it's easier to keep characters alive longer either via shifting for an era or the modern environment of defensive nets) did only one thing negative in my opinion - it made a negate character a necessity in 90% of decks. If you have a really fast Heroes for Hire based deck that can KO mini-combo characters quickly, or a defensive deck with Invisible Woman, you can probably squeak by without a negate character. If you don't have a negate character, a battlesite also becomes mandatory.

As more sets came out, there were far more 'effect' cards coming into play, which as you say, made it more interesting. As far as I remember, factoring a negate into my deck has always been the norm for deckbuilding, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I will put a character with negates on my team. More often than not it was from a battlesite. Even so, a team with enough 'tricks' simply means you have to decide carefully what you'll negate, because something is inevitably getting through.

Four Freedoms is still a powerhouse deck in certain matchups. If you are trying to win by playing lots of attacks, you are probably going to lose to FF Plaza. However, try playing FF against a deck with the Starjammers. Keeyah and Raza are going to eat you alive, not to mention any other effect based specials the team might be running. Now, whether or not it's a good or bad thing that the current environment is mostly anchored around needing a negate character is up for debate. A common complaint was that more characters should have had a negate, that way you wouldn't be restricted to choosing from three or four staple characters when making a deck. I don't even know if that would have changed things too much. Also, if too many people start having negates, then you can start making negate nets without sacrificing other things like the modern dual negate decks must do. Personally, I don't mind negates being so important right now, they are kind of like the glue to the format. Furthermore, it is cool when you are able to come up with a team that can function without a negate - it feels like a little secret that you've managed to sneak into the game.

Taking all that into account, it would be a very bad thing if you made the game even more anchored around negate characters. Making Leech play by its original text (or allowing it to be retrieved by BQ) just makes negate characters even more essential, which just leads to a more homogenized and ultimately boring format.

The idea that FF plaza is a powerful, but beatable team is a good thing. That the FF will dominate against some and lose against others is a good balance. As you say, now some decks will completely trash the FF Plaza, But I remember back when all you saw was FF decks or Marauders decks at tournaments. Hell, I remember tournaments that specifically banned both! Both extremes are not ideal, obviously. You should worry about the player you are up against, not the team they are using.

As for the Leech being played as written, I can tell you with certainty that it doesn't make a difference at this point with regards to having a negate character. The need to have a negate is already present, removing the Leech target rule doesn't change that. It actually opens options because now a player is that much more likely to consider Any Heroes as a viable option.  And the use of Any Heroes necessitates a different mindset when constructing a team. Certain teams built with a site just don't work as well with Any heroes, and vice-versa. That creates more variety, not less.

Also consider this - Battlesites have many cards that are on Par (if not stronger) with the Leech in terms of power. (Absorb Sound comes to mind right away, but there are other non-leech options such as draws, BQs, heavy hits etc.). All of these require a negate to stop them. There is no target rule for many of these cards that will often automatically create a game winning situation. By restoring the Leech, you grant the Any Hero something on the level with these options and restore a balance.

The result is that Anyheroes are powerful but lacking in variety, while Battlesites are versatile but can be destroyed or locked down with a little strategy. This is a decent balance.

The other motivation was simplicity. There are TOO MANY errata and adjustments to specific cards. One of my peeves right from the get-go was that so many cards didn't actually follow the printed text, and you needed some obscure meta rule to clear things up.

This isn't something I've just thought about, I've tested it out for two years with my regular playing partner, and instead of making things boring, we found it refreshed things and created new options. (Not just restoring Leech, mind you, but playing ALL cards as written with only a few standing errata). We've played hundreds of games with a lot of variety in deck construction.

Of course, the problem is we are only two points of view. I'd love to get a whole variety of players testing out our theories, which is why I bring them up. Your POV is greatly appreciated, BTW.  

I agree, that you want to beware of trends that limit variety. Card versatility is key to seeing some great new ideas. But at the same time strengthening an option isn't a bad thing, just so long as there are other strong options to choose from, which there are.

-BBH

[Onslaught]

I have played with Leech "as printed" before, it was called "the period after Leech was released but before it was errataed."  

Even as a means of bringing it up to the power level of battlesites, it's just too good as printed. It devolves the game into a coinflip situation (the majority of games with Leech before it was errataed came down to who drew Leech first). It would seem like even more of a crapshoot if you could retreive it with Webhead...just whoever gets lucky drawing one per deck cards before the other person does.

-----Interesting side note: when the change that BQ's couldn't get Any Heroes back anymore came into effect, our store heard news of it only as "Webheaded Wizard can't get Any Heroes back anymore." This led to some interesting decks featuring Scarlet Spider. In a way, I wish that had actually been the ruling. It would make people like Scarlet Spider or Wonder Woman a little more attractive while still keeping Leech from being abusive.

(Of course that would be thrown out the window later down the line, thanks to the Marauders getting a BQ for some reason...)

[Hot Rod]

I have played with Leech "as printed" before, it was called "the period after Leech was released but before it was errataed." 

Even as a means of bringing it up to the power level of battlesites, it's just too good as printed. It devolves the game into a coinflip situation (the majority of games with Leech before it was errataed came down to who drew Leech first). It would seem like even more of a crapshoot if you could retreive it with Webhead...just whoever gets lucky drawing one per deck cards before the other person does.

Haha, I remember "the period after Leech was released but before it was errata'd" such a happy time (not). 

I think Leech is probably ok as printed on it's own, but being able to BQ it is too much.  This would make it as strong as Absorb Sound, but not more powerful (seeing as you can't BQ battlesite specials).

[Onslaught]

Even without being able to BQ it, I think it's too degenerate. You can DOW Absorb Sound, not to mention it will whiff vs. a lot of decks. You also can place Leech....just too strong IMO. It would essentially read "unless your opponent has a negate, win 5 venture."

That's oversimplifying of course, but that's what it would come down to for any good player. So, two good players with all other things being equal...

[BigBadHarve]

I have played with Leech "as printed" before, it was called "the period after Leech was released but before it was errataed."  

Even as a means of bringing it up to the power level of battlesites, it's just too good as printed. It devolves the game into a coinflip situation (the majority of games with Leech before it was errataed came down to who drew Leech first). It would seem like even more of a crapshoot if you could retreive it with Webhead...just whoever gets lucky drawing one per deck cards before the other person does.

Smartass.  

Of course, that was the time before battlesites and the options to stop the leech were few and far between, Even the Bastion was just a gleam in Developer's eyes. With the IQ set, only Beast, Morbius, Scarlet Witch and Mojo had negates, so they were the only options to stop the leech. The pendulum has swung the other way now, so it's not a coinflip scenario anymore. There are just so many options to make things interesting.

-----Interesting side note: when the change that BQ's couldn't get Any Heroes back anymore came into effect, our store heard news of it only as "Webheaded Wizard can't get Any Heroes back anymore." This led to some interesting decks featuring Scarlet Spider. In a way, I wish that had actually been the ruling. It would make people like Scarlet Spider or Wonder Woman a little more attractive while still keeping Leech from being abusive.

(Of course that would be thrown out the window later down the line, thanks to the Marauders getting a BQ for some reason...)

We do play it that way. Even if I were to relent on the Power Leech target rule, and the Any hero limitation effect, I would argue in favour of keeping these specific characters' BQs as printed for the very reason you outline. It makes them more appealing, and creates options.

I guess the ultimate test would be to play an anyhero deck with Scarlet Spider, Wonder Woman, Two-Face and a 17 point character in back (Hawkeye anyone?). Everyone of these characters has BQs, plus the Web Headed wizard. It works in theory, but you're still at the mercy of the luck of your draws.

As for Marauder's BQ, interestingly enough, it's nicely balanced by its own wording - 'Any Special not playable by Marauders.' It provides many good options, as well as automatically eliminating any-heroes from the options.

I think Leech is probably ok as printed on it's own, but being able to BQ it is too much.  This would make it as strong as Absorb Sound, but not more powerful (seeing as you can't BQ battlesite specials).

You know, an idea I considered adding to my house rules was the notion that Anyheroes get discarded into the Dead Characters pile after use, like Battlesite specials. That way you get one use out of them. But you can still BQ an unused Any hero that was discarded for whatever reason, but it also creates par with the Battlesites. Thoughts?

Even without being able to BQ it, I think it's too degenerate. You can DOW Absorb Sound, not to mention it will whiff vs. a lot of decks. You also can place Leech....just too strong IMO. It would essentially read "unless your opponent has a negate, win 5 venture."

That's oversimplifying of course, but that's what it would come down to for any good player. So, two good players with all other things being equal...

Like I said, we've tested it out for two years, and the reality of it is that the ideal situation rarely comes up. Luck is the ultimate balancer in the end.

-BBH

[Onslaught]

You know, an idea I considered adding to my house rules was the notion that Anyheroes get discarded into the Dead Characters pile after use, like Battlesite specials. That way you get one use out of them. But you can still BQ an unused Any hero that was discarded for whatever reason, but it also creates par with the Battlesites. Thoughts?

I actually like this idea and wish they had done it in the first place. To me, Any Heroes were just like Event cards. They represented someone not on your team swooping in for a quick assist. Events went to the dead characters pile, so Any Heroes probably should have too. It makes sense flavorwise too - you should be able to recur a technique like "Thor hits someone with Hammer" but not something like "Angel flew in and picked you up to dodge an attack and then left."

Like I said, we've tested it out for two years, and the reality of it is that the ideal situation rarely comes up. Luck is the ultimate balancer in the end.

The point of any competitive asymmetrical game should be to minimize luck altogether instead of relying on it to balance things out...

---------Interesting side note number two: One thing that gets lost in reminiscing about the mythology of Power Leech is the origin of its creation. It was initially designed in order to punish single stat decks, as a means of dissuading use of the popular strength deck. I think that is really interesting. If it had only hit power cards, it might have served that purpose...but with dual stat decks running copious amounts of teamworks you would still get hit for 4 discards even if you weren't single stat.

[Hot Rod]

Discarding Any Heroes to the "Dead Character" pile is an interesting idea, though it does wreck the "New Lease On Life" deck.

But really, you have 1 leech to 3+ dazzler activators, if the activator deck has a negate on the team, it should have about 7 shots at a negate ( 3 in deck + beyonder + 3 activators).  It's still pretty hard to get the old leech off, with a pure avoid + personal negate, you just can't get the damn thing off in it's current state.  Theres no way in hell I'd bet 5 off a hand relying on the current leech, but you can definitely bet 5 off an Absorb Sound against an energy deck.

[BigBadHarve]

I'm starting to think we need a chat room on this site!

I actually like this idea and wish they had done it in the first place. To me, Any Heroes were just like Event cards. They represented someone not on your team swooping in for a quick assist. Events went to the dead characters pile, so Any Heroes probably should have too. It makes sense flavorwise too - you should be able to recur a technique like "Thor hits someone with Hammer" but not something like "Angel flew in and picked you up to dodge an attack and then left."

I wanted to test it out, but Lorne (my usual playing partner and rule tester) didn't like the idea. I think it works on so many levels and allows us to keep the anyheroes as written because you get them once.

The point of any competitive asymmetrical game should be to minimize luck altogether instead of relying on it to balance things out...

Luck is a factor that can't entirely be eliminated in these games. No matter how well you design your team, you can't create the perfect hand every round, you can only minimize the odds of getting a truly lousy hand. Even then, you'll still get shafted once in a while. Such is the nature of the beast. No matter how well you design it, luck will always play a role.

And that's a good thing, I think. The ultimate equalizer, not by design, but simply by nature.

BTW - Where are you based out of Onslaught? I'm just curious if you're close enough to consider attending one of our Toronto meetups. We're looking to do them bi-monthly. April may even be a tournament, I acquired some Holo-heroes that I will offer as prizes if we can get enough interest.

Discarding Any Heroes to the "Dead Character" pile is an interesting idea, though it does wreck the "New Lease On Life" deck.

Not really. You still get your regular cards back, and you opponent may get screwed with unusable activators.

But really, you have 1 leech to 3+ dazzler activators, if the activator deck has a negate on the team, it should have about 7 shots at a negate ( 3 in deck + beyonder + 3 activators).  It's still pretty hard to get the old leech off, with a pure avoid + personal negate, you just can't get the damn thing off in it's current state.  Theres no way in hell I'd bet 5 off a hand relying on the current leech, but you can definitely bet 5 off an Absorb Sound against an energy deck.

Precisely the reasoning behind playing Leech as written.

-BBH

[Hot Rod]

I dunno man, it gives even less of a reason to run anything but Fatal Attractions.

[Onslaught]

@BBH - I'm in California, so making it to Toronto probably isn't in the cards. I'd love to compete for Holo Heroes though...ahhhh

@HotRod - I'm not sure why you're so enamored with Absorb Sound from a Battlesite...it doesn't work vs. every deck like Leech does, and it is going to kill all the activators in your own hand as well. You could play it after you already used your other activators, but of course now it's going to make them discard fewer cards.

[Hot Rod]

@BBH - I'm in California, so making it to Toronto probably isn't in the cards. I'd love to compete for Holo Heroes though...ahhhh

@HotRod - I'm not sure why you're so enamored with Absorb Sound from a Battlesite...it doesn't work vs. every deck like Leech does, and it is going to kill all the activators in your own hand as well. You could play it after you already used your other activators, but of course now it's going to make them discard fewer cards.

I'm not sure which part of California you're in, but I know when I've flown out to Las Vegas and LA from Buffalo it was pretty reasonable.  If you can get a flight to Buffalo I'm sure either the Buffalo guys could drive you up, or we'd just come down and pick you up at the airport.

I don't want to start an arguement with you, I'm not going to contribute to any flaming here.  I'm completely happy with hitting the reset button and letting bye-gones be bye-gones.  I'd rather be friends with you than enemies!   

[drdeath25]

This used to be a good thread i was interesting in seeing alot of responses to the original post.

But anyway, while we are off-topic i might as well just ask. How do you play Beyonder 'as written'? Im just curious, not trying to be an asshole.