MUTANT REFUGE (B6) - Aspect

[gameplan.exe]

This card says,
"For remainder of game, both players must draw 1 card from top of Draw
            Pile for each Activator card played by Opponent. Draw card before
            resolving Opponent's action. Discard duplicates."

For the clarity of my question, let's just say I'm playing against BBH.

Where it says that "both players must draw..." does that mean that...

A) I will draw every time BBH plays an Activator AND BBH will draw every time I play an Activator?

Or

B) When BBH plays an Activator we will BOTH draw, but when I play an Activator, no one will draw?

[BigBadHarve]

It just so happens that Avalon is one of my current decks, and one of my new favourites, by virtue of this wonderful aspect! 

B) is correct. You only draw when your opponent plays an activator, meaning the aspect is a discard if you face someone using Any Heroes.

It being your aspect, when it says opponent it's referencing YOUR opponent specifically.

For added fun - play with the 'To Save The World' Any mission while this aspect is in play. 

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

Was this a tournament ruling? I mean, the card still seems pretty ambiguous to me (hence the question  )

So, in practice, how much advantage have you really seen from this card? I mean, I see the obvious help, that I get to draw a card before deciding what to do (if anything) about my Activator... but if they also get a card, that essentially turns all of my opponent's Activators into DTRs... that seems like it would backfire as often as not...

[BigBadHarve]

Was this a tournament ruling? I mean, the card still seems pretty ambiguous to me (hence the question  )

So, in practice, how much advantage have you really seen from this card? I mean, I see the obvious help, that I get to draw a card before deciding what to do (if anything) about my Activator... but if they also get a card, that essentially turns all of my opponent's Activators into DTRs... that seems like it would backfire as often as not...

The key to making Avalon successful is a prolonged fight. You can't hit and run because of your inherent, so you need to strategically play out any fight. The trick is to hammer your opponent into submission, so once that aspect is up, I like to throw all the big attacks that he needs to use his activators on. You'll find your opponent runs out of defense really fast because the battle is prolonged. And Avalon has a LOT of really nasty attacks.

If you design your deck well enough, you reduce your odds of discarding your own draw. I've found that with a streamlined team, I usually end up keeping anything I draw while about half the time I've noticed my opponent it pitching his draw. So it works out.

It's one of those cards that looks worthless at a glance, but in practice is really brutal.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

I just don't see what's difinitive about the wording, I guess. It seems to be very much ambiguous. It seems like it should either say,

"For remainder of game, both players must draw 1 card from top of Draw pile for each activator card played by [their] Opponent...." (to agree with A)
or
"For remainder of game, [Avalon's team and Opponent] must draw 1 card from top of Draw pile for each Activator played by Opponent. ..." (to agree with "B")

Or, to look at it almost mathmatically, it's the difference between

Both players (must draw 1 card from the top of Draw Pile for each Activator played by Opponent.)
or
(Both players must draw 1 card from the top of Draw Pile) for each Activator played by Opponent.

The semantics of the card can have the "both" apply to either the "must draw"; or apply to the "Opponent"; or it can even apply to the "must draw" and "Opponent."

[BigBadHarve]

I get what you're saying, but any card that states 'opponent' refers to the opponent of the player who is using the card. This is consistent throughout OverPower, I can't think of an example offhand where that's not the case.

So by that interpretation, it only applies when Avalon's opponent plays activators.

Believe me, I would rather the aspect apply to any activator played, then I wouldn't have to pitch the aspect against Any Heroes.

I did try Avalon as an any hero team, but I found I just couldn't make it work, though I have some ideas to fix that... but get that aspect up with DoW in play, and get a card each time your opponent hits the DoW... really brutal!

Yes he gets more as well, but if you're hitting him fast and hard enough, he won't have a team left by the time DoW is gone.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

And I'm sorry, BBH, but was this a Tournament ruling you know about, or is this how you determined to play it? Unfortunately, this is ambiguous, so it cannot simply be played as written 

I get what you're saying, but any card that states 'opponent' refers to the opponent of the player who is using the card. This is consistent throughout OverPower, I can't think of an example offhand where that's not the case.

True, except EVENTS, right? Because this is also the only card in the game that has players drawing cards in the middle of an opponent's turn, except for an EVENT.

Semantically, I honestly don't think there's anything to push it one way or the other.

The (absence of a) precendent with other cards doesn't convince me, i guess.

The only 2 clues that I can see are these

1. The card's name and context.
Mutant Refuge - during Fatal Attractions, Magneto was recruiting the mutants who attacked him. So, if my Opponent attacks me with an Activator, it makes sense to me that I could pause in the middle of the attack and try to do something about it - make my case, so to speak. Obviously this would go both ways if the card is played as "A)" in my initial post, but that would be stopped if I played Any Heroes.

2. Certain Home Bases (including AVALON), have negative Inherent Abilities to balance the potency that the Home Base allows you to pose (supposedly). Allo of the Aspect cards, however, give you a clear and distinct advantage over your adversary.
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:24:05 PM
I guess I'll try it both ways. I pencilling out a team for AVALON and it was built with AnyHeroes (under the "A" premise above). It already had very limited duplicates anyway (because any time I can draw cards mid-battle, it's a good idea to limit that) - so maybe I'll leave the construction as-is and see how it goes.

It just seems like it'd be a much better, more "historically" accurate card to play it like the "A" circumstance I listed. Playing it like the "B" seems like you have another card that is very difficult to make good use (notice I didn't say it's unplayable, or useless).

[BigBadHarve]

I guess I'll try it both ways. I pencilling out a team for AVALON and it was built with AnyHeroes (under the "A" premise above). It already had very limited duplicates anyway (because any time I can draw cards mid-battle, it's a good idea to limit that) - so maybe I'll leave the construction as-is and see how it goes.

It just seems like it'd be a much better, more "historically" accurate card to play it like the "A" circumstance I listed. Playing it like the "B" seems like you have another card that is very difficult to make good use (notice I didn't say it's unplayable, or useless).

No tournament ruling, I'm afraid. A choice had to be made, and since no one else I know actually uses Avalon or it's aspect (and the meta rules are no help) I had to base it on the standard way any other card is played. Events are very specific and unique, whereas aspects are played just like most other cards, so would fall under the general rules. Any card that refers to the 'opponent,' refers to the opponent of the character playing the card.

Honestly, however, if you can find anywhere it states that it applies to both players playing activators, not just the opponent, please let me know. As far as I'm concerned that makes that aspect even better. You get twice the bang for your buck.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

It would be better that way and I am always in favor or making cards better (except unblockable cards  )

Anyway, despite the ambiguity of the semantics printed, it seems my circle is aligned with your logic regarding the mechanics of the game. So, I'll give your way a shot 

[Onslaught]

I spoke to a Reserve about this, and to the best of his recollection they interpreted it internally as

"For the remainder of the game, if your opponent plays an activator, you draw a card. If you play an activator, your opponent draws a card."

Now everyone go try Avalon homebase with Any Heroes...

[CoS]

Which reserverist?  Not that I doubt it is just that I would put more weight to the memory of Barth or Probe over some of the others.

[gameplan.exe]

I spoke to a Reserve about this, and to the best of his recollection they interpreted it internally as

"For the remainder of the game, if your opponent plays an activator, you draw a card. If you play an activator, your opponent draws a card."

Now everyone go try Avalon homebase with Any Heroes...

I like this! Can anyone give a second reference?

[BigBadHarve]

I spoke to a Reserve about this, and to the best of his recollection they interpreted it internally as

"For the remainder of the game, if your opponent plays an activator, you draw a card. If you play an activator, your opponent draws a card."

But that's not what the card says. If that's what they did intend, then why didn't they just say that on the card? No, that makes absolutely zero sense - that interpretation reduces the card's value significantly.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

I spoke to a Reserve about this, and to the best of his recollection they interpreted it internally as

"For the remainder of the game, if your opponent plays an activator, you draw a card. If you play an activator, your opponent draws a card."

But that's not what the card says. If that's what they did intend, then why didn't they just say that on the card? No, that makes absolutely zero sense - that interpretation reduces the card's value significantly.

-BBH

The card's text is ambiguous. Like so many other instances in this game, re-wording a card to either remove ambiguity or to clarify with specificity, would've been great. I guess the most obvious answer is that the game makers didn't use enough testing or that they weren't English majors.
Also, why do you think this is less good? It seems like this makes the card more useful and easier to use because it gives a clear strategy...

[BigBadHarve]

The card's text is ambiguous. Like so many other instances in this game, re-wording a card to either remove ambiguity or to clarify with specificity, would've been great. I guess the most obvious answer is that the game makers didn't use enough testing or that they weren't English majors.
Also, why do you think this is less good? It seems like this makes the card more useful and easier to use because it gives a clear strategy...

The card's text is slightly ambiguous, but what is clear is that BOTH players must draw. It doesn't say one player must draw if the other plays an activator. The only question that comes up currently with the wording is whether it applies to both players when they play activators or only the opponent of the Avalon team.

To say that only the opponent draws when the other player plays an activator pretty much makes this aspect only worthwhile if you are using an any-hero team. If you get to draw when I play an activator, that's a serious disadvantage to me. The team is already saddled with a detrimental inherent, but it can be worked around. But to give up card advantage when I play an activator, no way.

I like the aspect as is (or rather, as we have been playing it) - Both players draw when Avalon's opponent plays activators. It would be really awesome if both drew when either played an activator, but I just don't hold to that interpretation because, as I've said, the card says 'opponent,' which to me means 'Avalon's opponent' not 'the opponent of the player using the activator.'

Also, If that were the case, I suspect that (despite the designer's obstacles with wording certain cards) they would have worded it something like this - 'both players must draw when any activator is played by either player.'


Although, it would be fun to try this scenario:

Playing the aspect so that both players draw 1 when any activator is played.

To Save the World event is in play, so one may draw when the other draws, which spikes the drawn cards when activators are played.

We're both using Avalon with the aspect in play, essentially meaning we draw 2 for each activator played, 1 for your aspect and 1 for mine. Then we draw an additional 2 for the event.

You play an activator to attack me. We draw 4. I play an activator to defend. We draw another 4. Rinse and repeat! 

That would be an amusing round. Though highly unlikely, still amusing.

-BBH