'Dead is Dead' or just hard to kill?

[Nostalgic]

I want to make sure I understand the 'dead is dead' rule as it relates to inherent abilities and specials.

X-Babies: Hits are all power cards and equal 20 points in 3 power types they are KO'd.

Grunge: Hit total is 20 points in 3 power types but no multipower he is still KO'd.

Rogue (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 20 points in 3 power types, but are all special cards she is still KO'd. (I see this the same as the X-Babies)

Ghost Rider (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 25 points in 3 power types he is not KO'd.

Morbius (with Strong Guy's CG in play): Hit total is 29 points in 3/4 power types he is not KO'd.

Deadpool (with his BF in play): Hit total is 29 with 1 multipower, 1 fighting, and 1 strength hit he is not KO'd.

Have I interpreted all these scenarios correctly?

[BigBadHarve]

I want to make sure I understand the 'dead is dead' rule as it relates to inherent abilities and specials.

X-Babies: Hits are all power cards and equal 20 points in 3 power types they are KO'd.

Grunge: Hit total is 20 points in 3 power types but no multipower he is still KO'd.

Rogue (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 20 points in 3 power types, but are all special cards she is still KO'd. (I see this the same as the X-Babies)

Ghost Rider (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 25 points in 3 power types he is not KO'd.

Morbius (with Strong Guy's CG in play): Hit total is 29 points in 3/4 power types he is not KO'd.

Deadpool (with his BF in play): Hit total is 29 with 1 multipower, 1 fighting, and 1 strength hit he is not KO'd.

Have I interpreted all these scenarios correctly?

Not entirely.

Anyone with 20 pts and 3 types is dead:


X-Babies: Hits are all power cards and equal 20 points in 3 power types they are KO'd.  = YES

Grunge: Hit total is 20 points in 3 power types but no multipower he is still KO'd. = YES

Rogue (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 20 points in 3 power types, but are all special cards she is still KO'd. (I see this the same as the X-Babies)  = YES

Ghost Rider (with Vision's EK in play): Hits equal 25 points in 3 power types he is not KO'd.  = NO. He is still dead at 3 types and 20 damage.

Morbius (with Strong Guy's CG in play): Hit total is 29 points in 3/4 power types he is not KO'd.  = NO. Dead at 20 pts and three types.

Deadpool (with his BF in play): Hit total is 29 with 1 multipower, 1 fighting, and 1 strength hit he is not KO'd.  = NO. Dead at 20 pts and 3 types.

It doesn't matter what modifications you make or what the inherent is, any character will die at 20 damage and 3 types.

Basically, it means you have to take your hits strategically, though characters like the above give you a little more flexibility.

-BH

[Nostalgic]

So you're saying 20 points and 3 power types are the 'absolute value/threshold/ratio' for KO. 

The relevant rule being:
"A Character is KO'd, regardless of any Specials or Inherent Abilities, if their Hits amount to both a Cumulative and Spectrum K.O."

I thought that certain characters due to their inherent ability requiring 30 points to KO or 4 power types to spectrum KO might slightly change that KO ratio relative to those specific characters.  I suppose these characters are still "strategically tougher' as you said...

[BigBadHarve]

So you're saying 20 points and 3 power types are the 'absolute value/threshold/ratio' for KO. 

The relevant rule being:
"A Character is KO'd, regardless of any Specials or Inherent Abilities, if their Hits amount to both a Cumulative and Spectrum K.O."

I thought that certain characters due to their inherent ability requiring 30 points to KO or 4 power types to spectrum KO might slightly change that KO ratio relative to those specific characters.  I suppose these characters are still "strategically tougher' as you said...

Pretty much. Truth be told, I like the Dead is Dead rule. It's one of the rulings they got right. Some characters are a little tougher, but you still have to watch what you take.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

Yeah, I love using Rogue for her I.A. and her shift Special. Timed well, I've used it to take several hits that would have killed some one else.

[BigBadHarve]

Yeah, I love using Rogue for her I.A. and her shift Special. Timed well, I've used it to take several hits that would have killed some one else.

Her Megapower Promo Card (nigh invulnerable), combined with Rogue: Brotherhood and an image inducer is a great round winner. Absorb a bunch of high powered specials and kill the venture. 

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

Her Megapower Promo Card (nigh invulnerable), combined with Rogue: Brotherhood and an image inducer is a great round winner. Absorb a bunch of high powered specials and kill the venture. 

-BBH

Yeah, NIGH INVULNERABLE is very handy with her I.A., too!

[Palatinus]

I like the Dead is Dead rule as well.  It makes a lot of sense and eliminates the worry about making cards later on that could have been abused.  It also makes you not worry about battlesite strategy.

[steve2275]

i dont like it
you cant just change the rules
i dont like mega negate decks either
but that doesnt mean they should be banned or anything


if you dont like those specials then negate them
where is this "dead is dead" rule anyway?

[Demacus]

I have to side with Steve, sort of...  I don't think anyone with 20 pts/3 stats should be KO'd regardless of inherants/specials in play. 

I believe that if a character becomes "unkillable" THAT is the only time the "DiD" rule SHOULD apply. 

IF someone actually gets both an EK and a CG on 1 character in a single game, that character now falls under "DiD" since there's NO OTHER WAY to KO him. 

IF the X-babies survive long enough to push their opponent into the Power Pack, then THEY would become susceptible of "DiD," but not before.

Grunge should have just been dropped on a "Banned list" or have had his Inherant errataed, similar to how Beyonder's was errataed.  As simple errata would be to add the following statement "When Grunge or teammate successfully defend Grunge from a MultiPower Power Card attack, put a counter on Grunge.  Grunge is -1 to defend against MultiPower Power Cards for each counter on Grunge."  Eventually 1 would get through his limited Grid and he could die like anyone else, while still being strategic to some degree.  Let's not forget he also has Danger Seeker which makes him REALLY hard to hit/kill on TOP of his BROKEN Inherant.  Avoidance counters would help him from being so damn hard to hit with the only card restricted to being lethal to him.

Ghost Rider's being Spectrum KO'd by only 4 types makes him a playable 20 pt character without a 7 or higher stat.  Yes, he has some good specials too, but some people have a hard time looking past the lack of stats.  20 Cummulative would kill him anyways, so it's not like the DiD SHOULD technically come into play.  IF he has 20 pts of cummulative damage, it shouldn't matter what stats are on him, unless of course someone dropped an EK on him, and then Kudos to them for pulling that off.  Eventually you'll get one more stat to stick and he'll go down.  That's part of the fun of the game.

Same with Morbius.  Yeah, he can only be Cum ko'd by a 30 min, but 1, 2, and 3 in different stats can kill him just like anyone else.  Sometimes it boils down to luck. It IS a card game after all, luck has to be a factor somewhere in there.

[gameplan.exe]

I've never been a fan of the Dead Is Dead (DiD) ruling, particularly because there are lots of ways to KO some one without it. NW-code is great for that, for example.

Also, keep in mind that DZ will defeat DANGER SEEKER and so will a negate.

[BigBadHarve]

I have to step in on the other side of this debate, and say that I heartily approve of the Dead Is Dead rule. It's a solid and balanced rule that doesn't permit abuse.

I'm against banning cards. So answering the problem of an overly powerful card by simply saying 'get rid of it' just means someone hasn't tried hard enough to strategize against it. Grunge, in this case, is still a pain in the ass but is nothing compared to what he was before Dead is Dead. I had a guy yell and swear at me in a tournament for using Grunge and being 'cheap' by absorbing every single hit except multi power hits. By the end of the game, there was 95 points of damage in Grunge's record and many of his power cards. Clearly an imbalanced and unfair situation. I guarantee you, while you'll likely enjoy using that tactic against others, having the shoe on the other foot and having it done to you won't be nearly as amusing.

Dead is Dead solves the problem of unkillable characters in a fair and broad way that affects all players. A smart player will still be able to capitalize on a character's toughness by taking strategic hits. Likewise, it allows persistent players to overcome buffed characters with a little focus.

Also, the rule is simple and clear. It doesn't require a hundred meta rules to reference and understand it.

In a game where many of the rulings were retarded and illogical, the Dead is Dead rule was one they got 100% right.

-BBH

[Demacus]

I just don't think it should apply to everyone.  If a character is KO'able through a little strategy, he shouldn't fall under DiD.  He should only be DiD if he can't be killed any other way.  That's all I was getting at.  I still think Grunge is a rough character, but MANY of my opponents have killed my Grunge due to a lucky shot when the only defense left in my hand was a 7 or higher.  No matter which Multi hit was comming at him, he wasn't blocking it with that.  If your opponent couldn't get a shot through, well, that's kinda his problem...  Not saying he shouldn't be allowed to complain, but like you said, a little strategy might have gotten past that little problem, instead of letting his deck get absoarbed into Grunge's permanent record.  Maybe I'm just a bad player that I would have a character like Grunge with cards that he can't use specifically, but it still makes him killable.

[BigBadHarve]

I just don't think it should apply to everyone. 

This is one of the major issues that Overpower has - too many specific rulings. ALL rules should apply to everyone. The only things that should override the rules are the cards themselves.

Overpower was plagued with too many rules that apply to some cards but not to others. Just look at the duration rule for the prime example of that.

"If a special does not indicate a duration and is OPD, it is considered remainder of game. If a special does not indicate a duration and is non-OPD, then it is considered battle lasting only."

As a blanket rule, it's brilliant! So many cards become more usable. And its a simple, clear rule.

But then, as you learn, it is not a blanket rule. It doesn't apply to every card. Other, individual rulings override it. Almost to the point that there's no use in having it.

Once you start making specific alterations to broad rules, things get needlessly complicated. Whether or not you agree with Dead is Dead (I know a lot of people don't) itself, the great thing about it is that there is no override for it. It's clear, simple, applicable to EVERYTHING, and that makes it balanced. Add to the fact that it takes away the possibility of truly unfair strategies.

The thing I don't like about Dead is Dead is the stupid name! ugh. What a dumb name for a rule. 

-BBH

[Demacus]

I follow what you are saying.  What I'm saying is that DiD should only apply to character who have become invinsible through some other game mechanics...  To put Deadpool on par with X-babies and Grunge is kinda rediculous.  The blanket rule is fine, if it's worded that "Characters who WOULD NOT BE KO'able OTHERWISE are KO'd at 20/3."  Yeah, DP is harder to kill with his Inherant+High Threshold combo, but I would hardly put that on the same level as having Grunge soak up 95 pts of Dmg and not dying due to no MultiPower hit.  That's all I'm saying.  It's a great rule, just not as it's currently worded.  My 2 cents.