'EB' cards

[breadmaster]

the ones that you play in front of your character, and must be attacked before you can.

do they get discarded after battle, or do they stay until attacked?

[Jack]

Battle.

Cards that are not OPD that have a lasting effect are discarded at the end of battle, unless otherwise specified.
Cards that are OPD that have a lasting effect are considered "remainder of game", unless otherwise specified (exception is Maverick's BG, which should be "remainder of battle").

Or, officially stated in meta:

Specials that do not indicate their duration by their game text should be considered Game lasting duration if they are One Per Deck and Battle lasting duration if they are non-OPD. Specials with instant effects are instant duration regardless.

[justa]

i believe EB cards (example Brood Spawn) are discarded after they are hit once.  other coded cards with similar but different wording have different effects.

[Karmanal of Zert]

I knew about that meta-rule but for some reason never considered it's application to EBs. Suddenly EBs are no where near as good or even playable as I thought. Major bummer.

[The Dude]

In a sane world it would never be applied to an EB special . . .

[BigBadHarve]

In a sane world it would never be applied to an EB special . . .

True - but this is conclusive proof that the maker of OP were not sane.

-BBH

[Karmanal of Zert]

So is it just me or are EBs not even really playable than? It's hard for me to see ever putting them in my decks again.

[BigBadHarve]

So is it just me or are EBs not even really playable than? It's hard for me to see ever putting them in my decks again.

It certainly reduces their usability significantly.

-BBH

[Karmanal of Zert]

In what sort of instance would you put them in a deck, BBH?

[BigBadHarve]

In what sort of instance would you put them in a deck, BBH?

I might use one in a battlesite, to play in front of a charcter I know will be targeted for whatever reason (teammate avoids, lots of assault etc.) It usually pushes the attacks away, unless the opponent REALLY want to kill that character.

Likewise, if I am using a character with those cards I might play one if I think he'll be targeted. Of course, there aren't many, are there?

-BBH

[Karmanal of Zert]

The only ones that come to mind are Brood, Aquaman, and Darkseid. I used to think EBs were better than old-fashioned "Avoid 1 attack"s because once you played them they no longer counted as a placed a card. Now it seems "Avoid 1 attack"s have the clear advantage because even though they have to be placed (depending on how risky you want to get), you're guaranteed they'll at least do something for you. Contrarily, you could be saving an EB forever and then once you decide to play it, your opponent could simply attack someone else for the remainder of that battle, meaning you totally wasted not just a card but one card per battle as long as the EB was placed for absolutely no positive effect. I suppose they're still useful as a desperation maneuver for keeping needed characters alive, but their effect as far as negating your opponent's attacks seems almost null since all your opponent has to do is wait for the next battle to resume attacking that character and the EB will be gone. Maybe one under a battle-site would be better so it'd be there just in case you need it and for anyone, but it's hard to see myself ever using so much as one in my decks after this discussion.

[BigBadHarve]

The only ones that come to mind are Brood, Aquaman, and Darkseid. I used to think EBs were better than old-fashioned "Avoid 1 attack"s because once you played them they no longer counted as a placed a card. Now it seems "Avoid 1 attack"s have the clear advantage because even though they have to be placed (depending on how risky you want to get), you're guaranteed they'll at least do something for you. Contrarily, you could be saving an EB forever and then once you decide to play it, your opponent could simply attack someone else for the remainder of that battle, meaning you totally wasted not just a card but one card per battle as long as the EB was placed for absolutely no positive effect. I suppose they're still useful as a desperation maneuver for keeping needed characters alive, but their effect as far as negating your opponent's attacks seems almost null since all your opponent has to do is wait for the next battle to resume attacking that character and the EB will be gone. Maybe one under a battle-site would be better so it'd be there just in case you need it and for anyone, but it's hard to see myself ever using so much as one in my decks after this discussion.

Silver Sable has one as well. Multiple Man and Taskmaster have one that specifically states remainder of battle but that also lets you shift or take the hit as necessary. (Not all that useful either, depending on the circumstance.)

Concrete Jungle is a worthy battlesite, so I would consider putting Sable's EB into that site, but as for putting them in a deck, not likely.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you from adjusting all this in a house rule, if you don't mind straying from the official rules. God knows I do.

-BBH
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:26:28 PM
Here's something to chew on, and a strong argument that EB and KC specials remain for the remainder of the game (despite what the rules might say):

If you were to adhere to the meta rules, specifically the rule regarding duration, then EB and some KC (among others) specials only last the battle as they are not One-per-deck and have no printed duration.

Okay, but then we get to the question of BR specials. Which state that: (character) may have 1 additional card placed to them until (character) is KO'd.

These cards are ALL non-OPD. Therefore according to the Metas, all BR cards only last the battle. Despite the text that clearly states 'until (character) is KO'd. Of course, if this card only lasts one battle, you would never get to benefit from the effect, as you'd have to discard it at the end of the battle.

So I guess there's a choice - let EB and KC cards stand as printed, or officially make yet another card absolutely useless.

Anyone wonder why I want to burn the meta rules? 

-BBH

[bamf!]

KC specials does have a duration, just not in the form of "remainder of battle/game", but instead the duration is actually stated as "until <character> is KO'd or cannot be attacked".
Which mean there is no preset duration as a character can be KO'd in the current battle, the following battle, etc. Same goes for BR specials.
The 2nd part of the condition prevents a player from abusing playing 'Charm' or similar special to create a lockout situation used in those bet 7 decks.

EB specials however, only last for the battle because of the meta and the inherent of Aquaman/Brood. This is the only reason I see, that lead to this decision.

If the special lasted until it was hit, then imagine creating a team with Aquaman/Brood/Marauders/Post, stacking EB (since the inherent allow to keep dupes), and vertigo accordingly so that no hits will land. Post plays 'Opponent -2 to Venture total for this battle. May be played from Reserve.' specials for the venture win.

So in order to save EB specials, I would suggest disabling Aquaman/Brood inherent. This prevents stacking, but play with the original intended duration of lasting until attacked.

bamf!

[BigBadHarve]

KC specials does have a duration, just not in the form of "remainder of battle/game", but instead the duration is actually stated as "until <character> is KO'd or cannot be attacked".
Which mean there is no preset duration as a character can be KO'd in the current battle, the following battle, etc. Same goes for BR specials.
The 2nd part of the condition prevents a player from abusing playing 'Charm' or similar special to create a lockout situation used in those bet 7 decks.

EB specials however, only last for the battle because of the meta and the inherent of Aquaman/Brood. This is the only reason I see, that lead to this decision.

If the special lasted until it was hit, then imagine creating a team with Aquaman/Brood/Marauders/Post, stacking EB (since the inherent allow to keep dupes), and vertigo accordingly so that no hits will land. Post plays 'Opponent -2 to Venture total for this battle. May be played from Reserve.' specials for the venture win.

So in order to save EB specials, I would suggest disabling Aquaman/Brood inherent. This prevents stacking, but play with the original intended duration of lasting until attacked.

bamf!

It was officially ruled that KC cards fell under the duration meta rule. The printed duration of 'until the character is KO'd or cannot be attacked' didn't qualify as a duration. So, only Grunge's 'Danger seeker' was game lasting. The mole man and Leader KC cards were battle lasting only. Personally, I think that's absolute crap, but that was what they decided officially.

As for EB specials - it's not broken for them to last the game. The strategy you mention is extremely unlikely - if you can pull it off, my hat's off to you. Remember the shift rule - shifted attacks cannot be defended by cards already in play. So you can't shift an attack to the EB special. They get shifted 'behind' the special. The only way for an EB special to work is if the opponent directly targets the character it's played in front of.

As for using Brood and Aquaman and keeping duplicates. You'd be screwed if you had too many multiples in the same round, unless it was early. While you build your wall in front of those characters, I target your third character. Odds are you won't have enough defense to hold off for long. The most you can do is fend off as much as you can while you build your wall and concede when that's done.

Aquaman and Brood's inherents are not broken, and the only way to make EB cards truly playable is to keep them as written so they last the remainder of the game.

-BBH

[bamf!]

I completely forgot about that shift ruling; then the above team combo is very difficult to pull off.
The disabling of the inherent was suggested without the shift ruling in mind, but with it I agree with you that doing so would make aquaman/brood more unplayable.

Sad to see the KC (non-OPD) got dragged in that as well, I guess the duration=depends has no meaning beside referring to that fact that the special's effect can end before the battle has ended, instead of meaning an unknown length of time.

However, BR special is listed as duration=game, interesting to see that they were trying to fix something they broke. Going by this, I view the KC special's duration=depends as something that last an unknown length of time.

It has become very clear to me that the meta (non-opd=battle, opd=game; etc.) was ruled in because they wanted to fix a certain card. It was easier and faster to generalize the ruling to affect all playable cards than it was to go through each one. It might have broke some cards, but it resolved the initial problem they set out to solve. Furthermore, given how they were competing with mtg and others, they needed a quick fix in order to maintain the player-base, little did they know, doing so ultimately lead to their downfall. [These are my thoughts of what happened, if someone working on OP at that time is reading this, please share your story.]

bamf!