LEECH (JT) <CL>

[gameplan.exe]

I feel like this idea has been discussed somewhere else, but I wasn't able to find it...

In cases where I can play a Special, which requires that I discard mid-hand, are those discards considered "usable" via the Special, during the Discard Phase, even if they were otherwise unusable?

Here's the scenario:
I have Leech (JT) placed to The Morlocks, and I draw my hand and it includes 3 Specials for KO'd Character. Can I keep those in my hand, since I can use them, even though I can't play them? I can use them by playing Leech (JT) and discarding them, right?

[breadmaster]

i've been told you cannot.  the example was the same as yours, but with hawkeye's card

[gameplan.exe]

i've been told you cannot.  the example was the same as yours, but with hawkeye's card

weak.

[Jack]

Ditto.

[gameplan.exe]

Ditto.

yeah, I was building a team with The Morlocks in Reserve and I thought, "This will be a great Special for them, so that if some one dies early and I get a hand chalked with their KO'd Specials, I can ditch them as fuel for LEECH!"

Anyway, I read through the rules and can't find anything explicitly saying I can't do this. I'm gonna bring it up in my circle this morning and see what they say.

[Jack]

Meta #32: If conditions are such that the card cannot be played this battle unless the opponent performs some action, then the card must be placed or discarded as unusable. If the player holds cards that can create the situation by which the card would be playable, then it can be kept in hand.

Meta #153: Specials which can make other cards (Specials, Power cards, etc.) usable allow you to keep those unusable cards in hand during the discard phase. The Special to make them usable must be available (e.g., Placed, in Hand, available through a specific draw - not through a random draw).

[breadmaster]

yep, i'm with you jack.  the rules seem to imply that they ARE usable cards. 

ESPECIALLY with the bullseye card.  otherwise it's usefullness is limited to only characters ko'd that battle.

[Jack]

Well, Hawkeye's card allows you to throw away your other character's specials as well as any teamworks and other cards that he can't use (remember, it's Hawkeye, not Hawkeye's team).

EF (offensive) - Play this Special during Battle, on your turn. Immediately discard any card that can-not be used by the hero playing the card from your hand. These cards can be unplayable due to the heroes inability to use them, the conditions set by an event, or the battle, Refill the same number of cards that were discarded. Duplicate cards drawn at this time may be kept. If this card is played using a DY Special or a CL Special, or anything similar, it affects the hero that played the card that allowed the EF Special to be played . NOTE: This Special is played to take effect and does not count toward the number of cards that is replaced.

So, if strength power cards are not usable but don't have to be discarded, they can be discarded for the purposes of the EF.

To summarize, Bullseye is allow to keep unusable, Morlock/Hawkeye can't.

[gameplan.exe]

Well, Hawkeye's card allows you to throw away your other character's specials as well as any teamworks and other cards that he can't use (remember, it's Hawkeye, not Hawkeye's team).

EF (offensive) - Play this Special during Battle, on your turn. Immediately discard any card that can-not be used by the hero playing the card from your hand. These cards can be unplayable due to the heroes inability to use them, the conditions set by an event, or the battle, Refill the same number of cards that were discarded. Duplicate cards drawn at this time may be kept. If this card is played using a DY Special or a CL Special, or anything similar, it affects the hero that played the card that allowed the EF Special to be played . NOTE: This Special is played to take effect and does not count toward the number of cards that is replaced.

So, if strength power cards are not usable but don't have to be discarded, they can be discarded for the purposes of the EF.

To summarize, Bullseye is allow to keep unusable, Morlock/Hawkeye can't.

I still see no ruling explicitely stating this. Seems like all 3 of those Special cards are creating exemptions.

[Jack]

Usable is not the same as discardable.

You always discard unusable cards unless other another card in play (special, artifact, event, etc.) makes them usable. There is nothing in the text that grants those cards with Hawkeye/Morlocks to make those cards usable. Bullseye's card makes them usable.

Hawkeye has more of an argument for keeping KO'd heroes specials, Morlocks has a much weaker argument.

Hawkeye's card says to discard cards from your hand. Your hand is formed from the initial drawing of cards for the battle, minus duplicates/unusable (ruling: see rulebook). Since there is no text explicitly saying you keep dupes/unusable cards for the purposes of the card, those cards must be discarded.

Morlocks' card also says to discard card from your hand. So the above text also applies. I have no idea how to make this clearer.

Bullseye's card says that any Special or Power cards can be used as attacks for this battle. Since you can decide which battle to use the card, you are allowed to keep unusable/dupes in the chance you wish to play that particular special.

[gameplan.exe]

nah. there's a difference between "usable" and "playable." the Leech card doesn't say anything about the cards needing to be playable by The Morlocks. i know some cards refer to "usable" as opposed to "playable" (e.g., JA-Specials, or the OPD for MultipleMan, etc). all i'm saying is that there's room for interpretation (as per usual  ), and my interpretation is that all 3 of those cards would let you keep otherwise-unplayable, and therefore unusable, cards. 

[Demacus]

I can see the arguments on both sides here being valid, just keep in mind when using these cards in an actual organized event, the ruling will go Jack's way.

[gameplan.exe]

I can see the arguments on both sides here being valid, just keep in mind when using these cards in an actual organized event, the ruling will go Jack's way.

yeah I know. that's the real bummer. I think I should be in charge of these rules 

[Demacus]

lol  I'm in favor of scrapping the rules for the sake of making cards more playable.  I, for one, have never understood why Wolverine's "Heal"/AL has to be played as an offensive action.  Name 1 time Wolverine had to stop what he was doing and focus on healing himself.  Why can't that be used defensively?  I mean, I KNOW why, but I don't nessassarily agree with that particular ruling.  Sabretooth as well, for that matter.  There may be characters out there who HAVE had to focus on healing, but that's a simple fix of coding the card differently, and maybe another triggered power to go along WITH the heal itself. 

[gameplan.exe]

lol  I'm in favor of scrapping the rules for the sake of making cards more playable.  I, for one, have never understood why Wolverine's "Heal"/AL has to be played as an offensive action.  Name 1 time Wolverine had to stop what he was doing and focus on healing himself.  Why can't that be used defensively?  I mean, I KNOW why, but I don't nessassarily agree with that particular ruling.  Sabretooth as well, for that matter.  There may be characters out there who HAVE had to focus on healing, but that's a simple fix of coding the card differently, and maybe another triggered power to go along WITH the heal itself.

yeah, that's one thing they did well with Maverick's heal card. I think it for Wolverine and Sabretooth (and Deadpool, for that matter), it would make sense to include hits off Permanent, too.

* POWER CHANNEL (NZ) <XM> {U}
        Remove 1 Hit from Maverick's Hits to Current Battle. Maverick may make
            1 attack with any card, usable by Maverick and in Hand, of equal or
            less Value than removed Hit.