Spider-Girl Clever Fighter LY

[mattkoz]

I'm looking to put a Spider family team together.

Let's say I play the LY with a 6F and it's successful. I can now keep 6F duplicates in my hand, and even place a 6F to Spider-Girl and keep any duplicates in hand. It seems as though maybe I couldn't place more than 1 6F elsewhere, or at least more than one of them to my other front line heroes.

A 6F placed to Spider-Man would mean any duplicates could still be considered Spider-Girl playable. But placing to Spider-Man and Scarlet Spider would mean that the duplicates are a Man or Scarlet problem, not playable by Spider-Girl.

Does this make sense? Is my thinking logical?

Also, because of the wording on the card, once Spider-Girl were KOed, this card would be discarded. The 6Fs already placed or in hand would now become duplicate and need to be discarded immediately, no?

[breadmaster]

your thoughts regarding teammates seem correct to me

as far as after ko, i believe anything in your hand is ok to keep until the end of battle.  you normally only discard after drawing cards

[Kal-el]

Agreed. I believe that cards that become unusable can be held in the hand for bluffing purposes.

[gameplan.exe]

I agree. The boys can't have the duplicates, but one of them could have the "original" and she can keep the duplicates. Also, if she's KO'd, I also don't think you have to immediately discard the duplicates from your hand immediately. That can be done at your discretion, I think, for cards like Longshot's HM, Morlock's Leech, or for defense of cards like Colossus' OC... I think...

[breadmaster]

i see no reason why the rest of the team can't use the dupes after she's ko'd

[mattkoz]

i see no reason why the rest of the team can't use the dupes after she's ko'd

The more I am thinking of it, I tend to agree with this. Can anyone confirm or deny? I mean, they are already in the hand and they are still playable by remaining characters. You probably should (or would have to) use them.

[Demacus]

Based on the card's actual text, "For remainder of game, Spider-girl does not have to discard duplicates of chosen Power Card's Power Type and Value" if you used that to dupe a lvl 6f that your entire team just happens to be able to make use of, then you draw a hand with 5 lvl 6f Powercards and she get's KO'd on the first attack of the hand, the remaining cards have already made it past the discard phase of the hand and can be used normally, but the next hand you resume play as normal, as if her LY no longer existed, cause it would have died with her on the previous round.

Again I'm basing this reasoning strictly on what the Card itself says and not any meta rules that might be tied to it.

[gameplan.exe]

I think this might come down to who's actually allowing the duplicates to be held. Like they belong to Spider-Girl. I'll say 2 things, though.

1) I want this to work. It's a tough card to use already, but the payoff could be huge. Plus, I'm a big fan of making cards more useful.

2) If her teammates are, in fact, allowed to use the duplicates she's keeping (say you have 5 of them in your hand and your opponent is pummelling Spider-Man, could you block with those duplicate PCs?), if the teammates could use them before she's KO'd, I see no reason why they can't use them post-mortem.

[breadmaster]

since it's a personal buff, the effect goes with her when she dies.

even if it stayed, it only allows spider-girl to keep dupes

[Demacus]

It doesn't state that Spider-Girl "may keep duplicates."  It states that she "doesn't have to discard duplicates" and since duplicates are only discarded at the start of the hand, when she would be KO'd after the discard phase the hand would remain as it was when the card was in effect.  If you have Power Leap in hand, and The Hulk gets KO'd before you can use it, you don't discard it immediately with him, you can hold it in your hand for bluffing purposes, but no other character CAN use it cause it's the Hulk's special specifically.  In the instance of the LY, you would have useable cards in hand, she would get KO'd, you'd still be able to keep those cards, and since they aren't exclusive to HER, even though she was the reason you were allowed to keep them, you could still use them for your team.  I would think you could use the dupes to attack/defend ANYONE on the team, even while she is alive, cause the card doesn't restrict the use of the non-discarded duplicates to be used by her exclusively.  It would be a perk of playing her on a team with other folks who could also use the card she chose to dupe.

These are the 3 metas in effect here:

Meta #73: Specials which have a lasting duration remain in play and on the table. The Special card should be positioned next to the Character in a manner in which it is obvious that it is not Placed.

Meta #90: Specials which alter a Character's abilities/skills that have a lasting duration are discarded when the Character is K.O.'d. Should the Character be resurrected or brought back into play later in the game, the discarded Special would not be in effect. Specials with a lasting duration that do not alter a Character (but affect the opponent or a teammate(s), etc.) remain in play after the Character playing the Special has been K.O.'d.

Meta #97: If a Special that indicates it should be "played with" another card is negated, both the Special and the card it was played with are discarded. If a negate is played against a Special indicating that a card should be discarded or exchanged, then the negation takes place prior to the discarding.

The card itself reads:

Play with any one Power card usable by Spider-Girl. For remainder of game, Spider Girl does not have to discard duplicates of chosen Power card's Type and Value.

Based on what the card states and Meta #90 (since 90 seems to be the only meta that even comes close to touching on this particular scenario), any duplicates that she is allowed to keep can be used by anyone on the team, so long as they can play it, and if she dies, it still affects the team for the remainder of the current hand, cause she cannot die before the discard phase of any newly-drawn hand (with the possible exception of an Event choice.)  Ergo, how I read the use of the card as stated above.  Again, simply how I read it and if there is an official ruling for this card written somewhere that states that all cards she can keep are for her exclusively and are discarded upon her death, then I have nothing to say against that.

The problems kind of lay with the way a card is being read.  There is a big difference between saying a character may keep duplicates of a card or stating that when discarding, that character does not have to discard a particular card.  By saying that "Spider-Girl may keep duplicates" kind of indicates exclusive rights to the non-discarded dupe, such as with Shadow Cat and her Ghostly Phase.  If you read the printed words on her actual special, however, you'll see that she simply allows any cards that match the Power card that she "linked" to the LY special she has in play, she simply has the option to "not discard" those duplicates, though nothing about the special indicates that "she MUST play the kept cards."

Also, just a quick reminder, that though my words may seem harsh, they are not written in anger.  I can simply sound that way when I am making a case for or against any given point.  Hope I didn't offend anyone.

[mattkoz]

I think that's a well thought out argument. So this card seems to have some real possibilities!

[Demacus]

If my argument is correct, then yes it does.  Problem with this game is, the way the card is written is not always how the card is played.  But in Magic: The Gathering, VS system, ect, the way a card is worded changes it's meaning entirely. 

For example, in Magic's more recent set there is a card call Blood Feud, it is kind of expensive, with a cost of 6 resources, which states "Target creature fights another target creature", but in the last set, which is still active in tournament play, they released a card call Prey Upon, which has a cost of 1 resource, and IT states "Target creature you control fights target creature you don't control."  At a glance, it would appear that both cards do the exact same thing, but one of them is 6 times more expensive.  The trick here is, due to the wording on the more expensive card, you can choose 2 creatures that your opponent controls so they kill each other off, or 2 that you control, for the same reason, or 1 of yours and 1 of his, if you really want to.  The text defines the flexibility of the card. 

In the case of Clever Fighter, I'm simply reading the card as written and interpreting what I see there.  If there is an unspoken exclusivity granted by the effect, then it's written in an errata that I haven't looked up.

[steve2275]

what about teaming those 2 together?

[gameplan.exe]

... At a glance, it would appear that both cards do the exact same thing, but one of them is 6 times more expensive.  ...  The text defines the flexibility of the card. 
...

this is actually how I feel about OP sometimes. I think the problem is that they weren't careful with their wording and had LOTS of regulations for the unspoken/unwritten words, instead of just leaving it open-ended and much more flexible. This is kind of how I feel about the whole attacking-your-own argument with the DZ/IA type cards. Some cards are left open-ended and have flexibility and additional strategy/use, while others do not. So I agree and lament the way this game was regulated.

Furthermore, I never revisited this topic with your above argument. I agree completely. The discarding happens before her KO. Power cards are only EVER exclusive IF they are placed. She creates the exception during the discard phase, you get to keep them even after her KO. Her teammates would also be allowed to use them any time, before or after her KO. good work.