Non-numerical attacks on record?

[gameplan.exe]

Are non-numerical attacks that land considered "hits" as they pertain to the current battle and permanent records?

For example, can Run From Slaughter remove cards like these cards?

* MENTAL CONTROL (AV) <BS> {VR} [OPD]
        Target character may not attack for remainder of battle.

Or this one, in subsequent hands, after it's been in play for a hand or two:

* SENYAKA (JF) <MN> {VR} [OPD]
        All Any-Power cards on Target Character's Permanent Record become
            Energy cards for remainder of game.

What about if some one is hit with that SENYAKA, and then later I play this card from Mystique? Will the JF be swapped with the numerical Hits? or will the numbers switch, but the JF remain on the original victim?

* MISTAKEN IDENTITY (CA) <PS> {R}
        Mystique may switch entire permanent record with any front line
            teammate.

Has anyone seen this type of thing in play?

[Jack]

This is very interesting, I've always assumed hits to be numerical.

Somewhat related, I was talking to bamf! after the meetup about the MB cards, which act as a 6 and, if successful, the target is KO'd by a level 2 power card of some type:


When I remove it with an AL card, the card goes away but the lasting effect should stay on (so, even with a clean record, if a 2S power card hits me, I'm gone). The way to really remove it would be to negate the effects of the card.

Back to your suggestion, I haven't found any ruling that explicitly says what "Hits" actually are; except that they were attacks that weren't defended. Though, I would imagine that the actual card being played would be a "hit" and any effects it brings be already absorbed by the character that has taken it. In other words, if you remove the AV with Morlocks' Run from slaughter, it would simply put the AV into the opponent's dead pile but you're still cursed with the fact that you can't attack.

[gameplan.exe]

I see! So, what about this scenario:

Let's say I have TheMorlocks and Mystique left on my front line and there's an MB on TheMorlocks, and then the EVENT comes up, EMPATHIC HEALING, which swaps 2 whole permanent records, the 6A is now on Callisto, but the secondary effect isn't transfered?

What about this, then... Instead of the EVENT, what if I played Mystique's CA- Mistaken Identity? That will swap all the hits, but none of the effects of the hits?

Is this the case for ALL cards that create effects, rather than straight damage? Like all of these...

* BLACK HOLE FORCE BEAM (DQ) <JL> {VR} [OPD]
        Target character's Hits to KO number is decreased by 5 points for
            remainder of game.
     * DARK MAGIC (NG) <XM> {U}
        Acts as a level 5 Energy attack. If successful, Target Character loses
            Inherent Ability and is considered to have no Inherent Ability for
            remainder of battle.
     * MUTANT SEEKER (NO) <XM> {C}
        Acts as a level 2 Intellect attack. If successful, attacks made on
            Target Character may not be moved to any of Target's teammates for
            remainder of game.
     * DOUBT (BD) <CL> {R} [OPD]
        Target opponent may not use Power Type of Psycho-Man's choice for
            remainder of battle.
     * SECRETE PHEROMONES (DP) <PS> {VR} [OPD]
        Target hero may not use cards with icon of Omega Red's choice for
            remainder of battle.
     * MERCY KILLING (NW) <XM> {R} [OPD]
        Acts as a level 5 Strength attack. If successful and Target has Hits
            totaling 15 or more, then Target is KO'd regardless of Inherent
            Abilities and other Special cards.
     * BACK SNAP (ML) <IM> {R} [OPD]
        Acts as a level 4 Any-Power attack. If successful, Target Character may
            be KO'd using normal KO rules, regardless of Inherent Abilities or
            other Special cards, for remainder of battle.

Etc?

[Jack]

With my hypothesis, only the cards move and the secondary effects stay. Because the special "acts as", say, a level 6 Any-Power attack, removing it (the Hit) would also remove the damage.

So yes, I would say that any of the listed cards' effects would stay after the hit has been removed (but would be removed if it were negated).

[Bios]

Jack, I agree with almost everything...

This is very interesting, I've always assumed hits to be numerical.

Back to your suggestion, I haven't found any ruling that explicitly says what "Hits" actually are; except that they were attacks that weren't defended. Though, I would imagine that the actual card being played would be a "hit" and any effects it brings be already absorbed by the character that has taken it.

Even if the rules don't explicit states that a successful non-numerical attack is a Hit, they specify that

a) "If a Special card or Aspect affects any of your opponent's Characters or your opponent's team of Characters, even if it does no damage, it is considered an Attack"

and they also specify that

b) "When an Attack is successful, the card that was used to make the Attack is left in front of the attacked Character card to indicate that he has taken a Hit"

So (a)+(b) implicit states that successful non-numerical attacks are Hits!


Morbius' "Undead Stamina also strengths that hypothesis: "Negates the effects of any 1 Special card. May not be used to avoid a numerical attack, or remove a numerical hit."

Since they used the term "numerical hits" it implicit states there are also non-numerical hits.

-------------------
About removing non-numerical hits with "remove 1 hit" cards

"AG avoids" don't state a specific condition, so they can be used to avoid either numerical and non-numerical attacks.

While "AD avoids" state a specific condition, therefore they can only avoid cards from a specific type.

By making a proxy,

"Remove 1 Hit" cards don't specify conditions and should be allowed to remove any kind of hits, including non-numerical ones.

In other words, if you remove the AV with Morlocks' Run from slaughter, it would simply put the AV into the opponent's dead pile but you're still cursed with the fact that you can't attack.

Quote from: Meta #42

Meta #42: Cards which are "in play" are those cards which are: (a) on a Character's Permanent Record, (b) on a Character's Hits from Current Battle, (c) played by a Character to create some effect and has not yet been discarded.

Since cards that have been removed are discarded, and therefore are no longer in play, how come their effects still in play?


Also, if removing a card won't cease its effects, I guess KL cards would be useless.

KL: Opponent must immediately discard all Special cards in play that affect the "remainder of the battle" or the "remainder of the game."

[Jack]

Excellent rebuttal, my hypothesis is shot down.

So removing hits with Run from slaughter would also remove effects? So MB cards are effectively negated? And it would also remove AV cards as well?

[BigBadHarve]

Excellent rebuttal, my hypothesis is shot down.

So removing hits with Run from slaughter would also remove effects? So MB cards are effectively negated? And it would also remove AV cards as well?

Of course, this argument becomes more complicated when you factor in the conditional effects.

I think a simple way around it is specifically defining the rules in this regard.

1. Cards with a secondary condition that affects the opponent remains for the stated duration, or until the card is removed from play.

2. If removed or avoided, cards with a secondary condition that affects the player who played the special should be placed next to the appropriate character to indicate that the effect is still in play until the duration expires or removed in some other way.

Or something along those lines...

-BBH

[Demacus]

Based on these arguements, cards that allow for the removal of hits are almost as powerful as negates, save for the fact that you can play a negate defensively and a removal can only be played as an offensive action, and thus becomes succeptable to negates itself.

On the flip side, if I remove my opponents Warrior's Soul, his team doesn't reclaim their ability to attack.

Also, Meta ruling:

Meta #29: If a Special has the phrase "if successful", then the second aspect of the Special only takes place in the event that the initial attack is not defended. If the hit lands and is later negated, then the subsequent action is not negated if the result is no longer "on the table."

[Jesse]

Based on these arguements, cards that allow for the removal of hits are almost as powerful as negates, save for the fact that you can play a negate defensively and a removal can only be played as an offensive action, and thus becomes succeptable to negates itself.

Not to sound like a complete idiot, but if my opponent plays a removal card I can negate it? i.e. if he plays the Symbiote I can negate it when he plays it?

[Demacus]

Yeah, his playing an AL is his offensive action, and you are allowed a defense, i.e. negate his AL.

[Jesse]

Yeah, his playing an AL is his offensive action, and you are allowed a defense, i.e. negate his AL.

So many swear words come to mind right now  .......when I used to play consistantly I never even thought about it literally being an "offensive action" since it wasn't an attack. At least now I know before I start getting my new group trained in the wrong way 

Thanks!

[Demacus]

From my understanding most pro players don't bother with AL's unless it acts as an attack that has a secondary condition of removing a hit upon sucess. Otherwise you simply lose hand advantage and thus venture.  I always just used what I liked since I never played for anything more then to piss my friends off.  lol  Same with Magic:The Gathering.  I used blue 90% of the time, cause I liked being able to control my opponent and that really pissed off the guys I played against.

[Jesse]

Same with Magic:The Gathering.  I used blue 90% of the time, cause I liked being able to control my opponent and that really pissed off the guys I played against.

I have a friend that built a blue deck about year ago and it was so slow and controlling that 2 people actually got frustrated enough that they walked out of an FNM!     It was hilarious because he would of for sure lost one of them (he was literally stalling for "hope" to win) but because of the 2 forfeits he actually won FNM that night.....

[Demacus]

See, I would never play a deck that annoying against someone I didn't know, but it's a hoot to watch my friends faces as they realize they need my permission to play just about anything.

[Jesse]

See, I would never play a deck that annoying against someone I didn't know, but it's a hoot to watch my friends faces as they realize they need my permission to play just about anything.

Well the sad thing is he didnt fully do it to just piss them off, he actually wanted to see if he could win. I think the problem with one of the guys, was he had a Life Deck so he was up to (I dunno  ) about 50 life BUT he couldnt do anything else and he just sent him over the edge.

I do think thats one of the sadest things about collectible games - the temper of players. Throughout different games: OverPower, Heroclix, Magic, WarHammer, etc I have watched so many people seem to shift from happy to extremely pissed with rage simply becuase "what they planned backfired" or " the other player spanked them so hard it was embarassing."

OH WELL - good with the bad I guess