Non-numerical attacks on record?

[Jack]

From my understanding most pro players don't bother with AL's unless it acts as an attack that has a secondary condition of removing a hit upon sucess.

*cough*

[Demacus]

Yeah, I've never understood that mentality either.  A friend of mine used to have a saying when we played cards.  If things went his way, he'd say "I must have deserved it."  If things didn't go his way he'd say "I must have deserved it."  Basically, he felt that since the cards should always be shuffled in a random way, his winning or losing wasn't truly up to him, it was based on the cards he and his opponent drew.  I guess Yu-Gi-Oh ruined the competetive edge, since he was always talking about "the heart of the cards." lol

From my understanding most pro players don't bother with AL's unless it acts as an attack that has a secondary condition of removing a hit upon sucess.

*cough*

I stand corrected, but this AL is one of the very few that actually affects venture, not simply wastes a turn healing a character, who is likely to take another hit right after, so it's still an anomaly amongst AL specials.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I've never understood that mentality either.  A friend of mine used to have a saying when we played cards.  If things went his way, he'd say "I must have deserved it."  If things didn't go his way he'd say "I must have deserved it."  Basically, he felt that since the cards should always be shuffled in a random way, his winning or losing wasn't truly up to him, it was based on the cards he and his opponent drew.  I guess Yu-Gi-Oh ruined the competetive edge, since he was always talking about "the heart of the cards." lol

Yeah - another friend of mine loves MTG but flat out refuses to play any games with Dice. He says there is too much chance involved and you are not in control - I usually just laugh and ask how much control you have with the Magic deck and if they manage to stay in order when he suffles  He usually gives me a look and moves on to another topic......

[Demacus]

lol ...nice...  Every game of chance has degrees of sucess.  It all simply depends on what you are looking for.

[Bios]

Wow! That post got really interesting! Kudos to ncann for starting it.

We play this game for so long and I don't remember anyone exploring the possibility of removing non-numerical attacks before! But it just seems that is perfectly according to the rules.

Also it turns remove hits in something much better, opening new strategic possibilities.

Based on these arguements, cards that allow for the removal of hits are almost as powerful as negates, save for the fact that you can play a negate defensively and a removal can only be played as an offensive action, and thus becomes succeptable to negates itself.

On the flip side, if I remove my opponents Warrior's Soul, his team doesn't reclaim their ability to attack.

I don't think "remove hit" cards are almost as powerful as negates. Not even close!
A negate can be used to defend or remove a card played against any character, the team or even the player itself. Most of the "remove hit" cards can only be used to remove hits from the character who played it. And almost every "remove hit" card can only be used to remove a hit from the permanent record, wich turn them useless against cards like "AV" specials.

I guess by removing "Warrior Soul" the "Team may not attack for remainder of battle" effect is also removed.

Excellent rebuttal, my hypothesis is shot down.

So removing hits with Run from slaughter would also remove effects? So MB cards are effectively negated? And it would also remove AV cards as well?

Meta #29 - "... If the hit lands and is later negated, then the subsequent action is not negated if the result is no longer "on the table."

Meta #85 - "The phrase "on the table" refers to any card which is (a) in play (b) placed to any Character (c) in a Character's Permanent Record or (d) in a Character's Hits From Current Battle."

Examples of effects that cannot be negated if a hit is removed or negated (since they are "instant duration" and the results are not in table):
-   CU - Acts as a level 7 [power type] attack. If successful, target character must immediately discard 1 placed card.
-   GB - Acts as a level 7 [power type] attack. If successful, [character] may move 1 Mission Card from the Defeated Missions Pile to the Reserve Missions Pile.
-   LQ - Acts as a level 4 [power type] attack. If successful, may make 1 additional [power type] attack against same Character. Additional attack may not be defended.

MB has game lasting effects "on the table", so I don't see any reasons why the effects shouldn't cease if the card is removed.

Of course, this argument becomes more complicated when you factor in the conditional effects.

I think a simple way around it is specifically defining the rules in this regard.

1. Cards with a secondary condition that affects the opponent remains for the stated duration, or until the card is removed from play.

2. If removed or avoided, cards with a secondary condition that affects the player who played the special should be placed next to the appropriate character to indicate that the effect is still in play until the duration expires or removed in some other way.

Rule #1 is pretty clear. But I can't recall any cards wich rule #2 should be refering. Any specific cards in mind?

[gameplan.exe]

Thanks for all this feedback, guys!

What I'm trying to work out is the use of these 3 cards together, and how they might be manipulated to kill some people without the use of a number (to slip past 9-or-less avoids)...

* MASQUE (DQ) <MN> {VR} [OPD]
        Target Character's hits to K.O. number is decreased by 5 points for
            remainder of game.

     * MORLOCK HISTORY (KD) <CL> {R} [OPD]
        All Intellect Power Card Hits on Target Character are doubled when
            determining Cumulative K.O. for remainder of game. Does not count
            toward Venture Total.

     * QUICK MIX (CA) <MV> {NA} [OPD]
        Quicksilver may switch entire Permanent Record of any two of
            Opponents Front Line teammates.

So, more than the question of healing, my question is regarding the effect of a Special when the special is moved, but not so much if it is removed.

So, if i've already landed the DQ on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and Marauders have 15 points on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the points off Maurauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the DQ then be transfered to Marauders when the DQ moves?

Similarly, if I have the KD on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and the Marauders have 1I+2I+3I+4I on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the INT Power cards off Marauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the KD then be transfered to Marauders when the KD moves?

Fortunately, the CA card here specifies "Permanent Record" so I can still manipulate things to line up the Current Battle Hits with the Permanent Record Hits (and/or effects), but I want to address the rules of this first here, before I try to execute this strategy.

[Demacus]

I don't think the DQ or the KD are placed in the permanent record, I think they are simply "in play" on the character they target, much like when you play Kherubim for Zealot, it simply sits on top of her, not in her permanent record, nor in the placed slot.  I think it's kind of an unwritten "cards in play" area.  If a special creates an effect on a character that is game lasting, it is in play "here" and not in that characters hits from current battle or permanent record.

I am basing this primarily on the fact that if you actually "Play" a similar card in the OPO game, it rests on top of the character card.  I would think the programmer of the game based that card placement on a rule he read somewhere at sometime, but it could simply be a mistake in both cases (his and mine.)

In any case, I think switching 2 characters perm recs would only move the cards with numerical hits that act as damage, since when the game was first created there were almost no effects as described that would last more then a single turn and were simply discarded at the end of battle.

Again, just my 2 cents.

[gameplan.exe]

I don't think the DQ or the KD are placed in the permanent record, I think they are simply "in play" on the character they target, much like when you play Kherubim for Zealot, it simply sits on top of her, not in her permanent record, nor in the placed slot.  I think it's kind of an unwritten "cards in play" area.  If a special creates an effect on a character that is game lasting, it is in play "here" and not in that characters hits from current battle or permanent record
....
Again, just my 2 cents.

This is my hope, since it creates even more opportunity for this deck I'm conceiving.

[Bios]

I don't think the DQ or the KD are placed in the permanent record, I think they are simply "in play" on the character they target, much like when you play Kherubim for Zealot, it simply sits on top of her, not in her permanent record, nor in the placed slot.  I think it's kind of an unwritten "cards in play" area.

Kherubim its not a good example, because its not an attack. It doesn't affect the opponent or the opponent's characters. If affect Zealot's team's special cards, as adding the text "may not be Negated until Kherubim is Negated" to every special card.

Like I said in my previous post, I still convinced that:
a) ANY SPECIALS (numerical or not) wich affects any of your opponent's Characters are considered attacks;
b) "When an Attack is successful (and it doesn't specify "numerical or non-numerical attack"), the card that was used to make the Attack is left in front of the attacked Character card to indicate that he has taken a Hit"

...my question is regarding the effect of a Special when the special is moved...

So, if i've already landed the DQ on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and Marauders have 15 points on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the points off Maurauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the DQ then be transfered to Marauders when the DQ moves?

I guess the effects of the DQ would be transfered to Marauders when the DQ moves.

Similarly, if I have the KD on Sabretooth on an earlier fight and the Marauders have 1I+2I+3I+4I on their permanent record, can I use the CA to move the INT Power cards off Marauders, onto Sabretooth to kill him? or will the effects of the KD then be transfered to Marauders when the KD moves?

I guess the effects of the KD would be transfered to Marauders when the KD moves.


My interpretation was just an exercise of filling the gaps from the rules, while not doing anything against the rules itselves.

[gameplan.exe]

Those are good points, BIOS, and I can easily agree with them. It's certainly the easiest way to keep track of things and prevents having to maintain some "hidden record" to simply say that, whomever has the hit on them, has the (primary/secondary) effect on them.

While it would make this tentative deck I have, a little more interesting, a convoluted ruling about effects remaining would probably hurt every other deck I have >.<

Besides, there's still the difference between Current Battle and Permanent Record to help with Quicksilver's CA that I'll be using 

[steve2275]

                                         

can you ko someone just with those?

[Demacus]

Yup.  It'd be tricky to pull off, but not impossible.

[DarKBladE09]

So if someone uses Captain Britain's KL to discard all cards with "remainer of battle" or "remainder of game" to remove DoW, are you guys saying that the effects remain in play even though the card is gone? That's kind of what I got from the first page on this topic... that only negating will remove the card and it's effects. I have to disagree and think if a card is removed, it's effects should follow it to wherever it goes. I can see it the other way, but it seems a little manipulated in that respect. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Bios]

So if someone uses Captain Britain's KL to discard all cards with "remainer of battle" or "remainder of game" to remove DoW, are you guys saying that the effects remain in play even though the card is gone? That's kind of what I got from the first page on this topic... that only negating will remove the card and it's effects. I have to disagree and think if a card is removed, it's effects should follow it to wherever it goes. I can see it the other way, but it seems a little manipulated in that respect. Maybe I'm wrong.

You just didn't read it all. We already discussed that issue.

[DarKBladE09]

I'm pretty sure I read it all, and I read it all again after your comment I only ask this specific question because DoW wasn't brought up in any scenarios and I wanted people to see how playing in that way would make DoW the ultimate card (even though it kind of alrdy is and people dont normally try to get rid of it in that manner). I had this exact thing done to me not realizing that it could happen. After it did happen, I was very satisfied knowing that DoW could be stopped in some way (I was the one with DoW played on opponent).
Playing Devil's Advocate here... I think that if the creators of overpower meant for card affects to stick around after their corresponding card was removed, they would have told us many years ago. I'm not a fan of inferring rules just because its not explicitly stated. I believe the average overpower player would assume the affects follow the card. Since getting back into the game, I think a lot of "rules" have been created just so people can play cards in the way that they want to and not how they were necessarily meant to be played. Just my opinion... still love the game myself.